What's Left In Speaker Design To Reduce Distortion/Increase Detail Retrieval?

[MattHooper]

This question popped in to my mind simply from some recent experience listening to some speakers at another audiophile's place.

I currently listen to some smaller floor standing speakers with good quality drivers (Joseph Audio Perspective 2 Graphene) and I find there to be a gob-smacking sense of clarity
and detail in to recordings. Along the lines of "how could it get better than this?" (And I've heard lots of other speakers).

Then I go over to my Pal's place and listen to a pair of big ol' Estelon speakers, one of the newer "it" brands in high end audio circles. I forget which new model, but they retail for something like $65K. Now, most of us have had plenty of experiences showing us that money doesn't necessarily buy you any better sound in high end audio. But I have to say, even though the presentation ultimately wasn't to my liking as much as my own system, they just seemed to obviously dig out more sonic information in the recordings. So for instance drums on a track on my system would be well placed in spatial terms, and I can hear if the drums were placed in a reverb. But the Estelon speakers just seem to effortlessly carve out precisely where the drums are in the soundstage and the precise acoustics or added reverb around the drums...and exactly where that reverb "ends" is more vivid and obvious. Basically there is this constant sense of more sonic information, presenting more precision about what is in the recording.

Which had me wondering what accounted for these differences. Better drivers? The more heroic efforts that went in to removing the influence of the Estelon cabinets? The whole design?

Now, that's just accounting for why this question was on my mind. Anyone can simply ignore the above example (it's just my subjective impressions after all) but still get to the issue I'm wondering about:

What is left in terms of speaker design to achieve, in terms of lowering audible distortion and hence retrieving more neutral sonic information from recordings?

(I add "neutral" because of course one can always hype a speaker's high frequency response to increase perceived detail...that's not what I'm talking about).

Are we done? Or is there more to achieve in terms of materials and design (drivers, cabinets etc)? Is a very flat frequency response all there is (since resonances will purportedly show up in frequency response)? Or could we take a speaker that measures very even, yet some upgrade in driver material/design or even more reduction in cabinet resonances may yield even higher sonic performance, retrieving some subtle details that were obscured before?

Where can we go from here?

 

[SKBubba]

Solid state quantum digital air exciters.

 

[FrankW]

Tube connectors

 

[PatentLawyer]

At least some Estelon speakers have a mid treble rise, which could explain the heightened perception of detail.

Estelon XB Diamond Mk.2 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

 

[MattHooper]

At least some Estelon speakers have a mid treble rise, which could explain the heightened perception of detail.

Estelon XB Diamond Mk.2 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Yes, thanks, both my friend and I noted a bit of a push in that region. My Joseph speakers also have something of a rise in the highs.

He has a different cheaper pair of Estolons as well in another system and they don't seem to have that rise in the treble rise, sounding distinctly more mellow than
the newer big ones. However, even those smaller Estelons have some similar qualities.

Though, as I said, we don't have to necessarily discuss these speakers, it's more of a general question.

 

[notsodeadlizard]

What is left? Everything.
Where can we go from here? We can't go somewhere cause we are not professionals in any related to loudspeakers design area. And those who do it professionally are always going somewhere in a meaningful direction, which is why your speakers make you feel that way.

 

[alex-z]

What is left in terms of speaker design to achieve, in terms of lowering audible distortion and hence retrieving more neutral sonic information from recordings?

Active directivity control + multi-channel reflection management.

Basically the Beolab 90 + Dirac Live Active Room Treatment.

Although even the Beolab 90 isn't using state of the art drivers. In theory, you could build something even better with Purifi woofers and KEF "Meta" coaxial drivers.

 

[Curvature]

Active directivity control + multi-channel reflection management.

Basically the Beolab 90 + Dirac Live Active Room Treatment.

Although even the Beolab 90 isn't using state of the art drivers. In theory, you could build something even better with Purifi woofers and KEF "Meta" coaxial drivers.

I would agree this is the trend, and it is a good trend. However if the topic is distortion I would note that most speakers struggle to play with THD less than -50dB. In multitone measurements, like those by Erin and @Nuyes, this distortion free dynamic range is reduced by around 20dB, depending on level.

Plenty of complex mechanical design work on drivers remains to be done.

We're in an era where simulation has made excellent directivity the norm, and many people understand the principles even if they disagree on the goals. I would think there are comparatively fewer people like @René - Acculution.com who understand driver behaviour. Most work for or in contract with private companies. Advances are in driver fundamentals are in their hands.

 

[Thomas_A]

What is left? Not soo much I would say in term of frequency response and distortion. More however on dispersion. Those Estelons seem to be wide dispersion speakers - cabinet design that way?

 

[Elitzur–Vaidman]

Topological optimization?

Topology Optimized Tweeter Phase Plug

- Introduction - A study has been made combining acoustic simulations and topology optimization with a target of altering the horizontal directivity of a tweeter via adding a phase plug in front of it. This is a very complex setup as a single phase plug geometry needs to be found that across a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[gnarly]

What's left ? The very foundation of both sound and hearing, imo

The Time Domain.
Seems to me only the tip of the iceberg has been researched so far.

Whereas only the tip remains to be researched, in the Frequency Domain.

 

[Plcamp]

What is left in terms of speaker design to achieve, in terms of lowering audible distortion and hence retrieving more neutral sonic information from recordings?

There is nothing left to do.

Everything is known.

Further changes are simply adjustments of form and fit but not function or performance.

If you need further improvement, it’s your room not your speaker.

And it’s great you can get such performance under $500 a pair.



One day everyone will agree with this.

 

[FrankW]

Ok, the real answer is lots more blind/controlled 2 ears listening tests, to advance the actual sound quality of speakers and simultaneously debunk all the nonsense audiophiles believe affect said SQ

 

[DVDdoug]

Dan Clark has a video where he says distortion is often described as "detail". Fascinating!

I would have also thought it was high-frequency boost, but you never really know what these "audiophile words" mean.

...I don't remember what frequency range he was talking about, and I don't remember where it is in video. But I saved the link because I found that one thing so surprising.

 

[voodooless]

Along the lines of "how could it get better than this?" (And I've heard lots of other speakers).

Occam’s razor says it’s either the room or the frequency response. Or a combination of both.

 

[Sined]

What's left?
Active speakers, with digital equalizer, calibrated in time and amplitude using dsp and room EQ. Oops, sorry, that already exists, it's a DEQX !

 

[MattHooper]

As expected, a range of replies, thanks.

So take for example something that measures great like the Revel Salon 2. What if anything might be done to improve it's performance? First, stick to material/mechanical
"improvements." For instance is it possible that some cost-no-object level of additional damping/bracing of the cabinet could yeild any audible benefits? (Anecdotal reports seem to suggest Acora is on to something with their nothing-special drivers placed in fully granite cabinets in that respect...maybe...).

Could the drivers plausibly be advanced to yield even lower distortion, with audible benefits?

Anything else mechanical?

Would making them active designs, in of itself, audibly improve on those speakers? Digital crossovers yield audible improvements?

I'm sure one could get right in to DSP which will can possibly improve the performance of many speakers in-room. Though I don't think I'm talking about that, so much as
the engineering associated just with the speakers themselves.

 

[Purité Audio]

See contemporary active designs, for example the new Genelec, it is completely obvious that this is the future of loudspeaker design.
Keith

 

[MattHooper]

See contemporary active designs, for example the new Genelec, it is completely obvious that this is the future of loudspeaker design.
Keith

Ok, but why? If Genelec designs a speaker with essentially the same frequency range of the Salon 2, where would it be audibly better and why?

 

[Blumlein 88]

As expected, a range of replies, thanks.

So take for example something that measures great like the Revel Salon 2. What if anything might be done to improve it's performance? First, stick to material/mechanical
"improvements." For instance is it possible that some cost-no-object level of additional damping/bracing of the cabinet could yeild any audible benefits? (Anecdotal reports seem to suggest Acora is on to something with their nothing-special drivers placed in fully granite cabinets in that respect...maybe...).

Could the drivers plausibly be advanced to yield even lower distortion, with audible benefits?

Anything else mechanical?

Would making them active designs, in of itself, audibly improve on those speakers? Digital crossovers yield audible improvements?

I'm sure one could get right in to DSP which will can possibly improve the performance of many speakers in-room. Though I don't think I'm talking about that, so much as
the engineering associated just with the speakers themselves.

Okay, time for a little conspiracy theory. We know about the Spin-o-rama and other research from Harman. They are holding back something in this. I find having heard a few different Revel's or JBL's that unlike some brands, the quality does track with price. Not to the extent that twice the money is twice as good. It does track that twice the money is clearly better. I forget, it was in one of Amir's comments, about the the top of the line Revel Salons and some of the newer Be models about which is better. And he was told the Salons still smoke the newest Be model in their blind testing.

So does Revel know what parts make this happen? Or have they just found a few rules of thumb beyond the basic spin-o-rama guidelines? If there is nothing new, I would suspect it is less audible resonances. Maybe some additional results informing them what kind of resonance they can get away with and which defile the sound to the listener.
Resonances show up most clearly in the directivity index graphed on the lower graphing of the spin testings. If there is more, is it distortion levels, is it something else?

If you peruse Amir's results for various Revel's here the more expensive models generally have smoother DI curves. The larger Genelecs look exceptional in this regard too.

Revel Performa 3 vs ML Electromotion ESL - comparative measurements

One thing for sure. Revel seems to represent the (or perhaps one of the) greatest bang for the buck in speakers. Perhaps I should think about the F208 ( I believe Kal mentioned how close they are/were to the Salon2 Ultima in term of sound and measurements) . I am one who believe in always using...

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