B&W vs Estelon vs Magico - Recent Demo

[cpachris]

Curious as to thoughts of others that own or have had the chance to demo the speakers in the title. I'm looking to upgrade speakers, and based ONLY on online research and my past experiences, I thought that I wanted to upgrade to the B&W 801's. I've had 3 different sets of B&W speakers over the years, and currently have both the original 703 series and some CM's in two different rooms. There were no dealers in my local area that kept 801 demo's in stock, so I found a dealer in Dallas that had some ready (and some McIntosh gear I'm also considering) in the store, and scheduled some time with them.

First up was the B&W 801 D4's,....and I thought they sounded fantastic. Same sound I'm used to but bigger in every way. I liked them and was probably just about ready to pull the trigger. The shop then suggested that I also audition the Estelon XB's. I had been considering the 801 Signature version (blue color increased the WAF) and since the price of those were close to the Estelon XB's, he said I should hear those also.

WOW. There really was no comparison. I know sound is subjective, but for me, in that room, with that gear,....it wasn't even close. The Estelon's had some voodoo that just worked for me. They then asked me if I wanted to hear something from Magico that was similarly priced, and swapped speakers for the Magico S3. Again....WOW! The B&W sound that I have lived with and loved for 20+ years....just was not even in the same ball park as the Estelon and Magico speakers.

The shop guy could tell I was in love and asked if I wanted to demo the next step up, the Estelon X Diamond. These were much more expensive speakers, but the bass extension difference was clearly better and they sounded amazing.

I'm looking for a sanity check or some advice here. Before I throw down big $'s on a speaker upgrade, has anyone else demo'd these with the same gear in the same room? Different conclusion? I'm also interested in other directions to look at both price levels here (~ $50k and ~ $90k). Sure loved what I heard, but should probably seek out listening to some other options to make sure there is no buyer's remorse. Let me hear your thoughts on these speakers....or others that should be considered in both of these price ranges.

Thanks in advance!

 

[eyedrop]

Unfortunately I have not demoed the speakers in the title but own the old CM5 and have heard lots of demos from "exotic" dealers like Wilson, Linn, Focal. My recommendation is, for most domestic listening room sizes, you only need $10k-$15k for mains and $5k worth of subs in a well treated ~450sq ft rectangle and a low noise floor for the pinnacle of audio nirvana. Spending $50k+ on just the speakers is sure to bring buyers remorse. If your gonna be in a non-optimal room or listening situation, thats even more reason to not spend too much money on passive speakers, and instead, spend it on treatments and dialing in parametric EQ or room correction software. The only reason to spend $50k on speakers is if your in a giant room or you like the aesthetic aspects. Top performing brands like Genelec and Neumann are kinda ugly in a traditional sense. But to me, they look like they sound amazing. Exotic speakers believe it or not usually has lots of acoustic issues but has beautiful finish cabinets. However, I think the exotic brand Revel with M105, F328B and Salon does measure pretty well for a exotic speaker company and has a nice expensive look to them. I hope this helps

 

[MarcT]

You might check into Rockport Technologies speakers. The Avior II is in that price range. There is a dealer in OKC.

Also, consider attending the inaugural Southwest Audio Fest in Dallas next weekend, where there will be all kinds of top speaker options being demonstrated. It's at the Anatole Hotel.

Attend | SouthWestAudioFest

Information on what attendees of the SouthWest Audio Fest can expect including show dates & times, accommodation info, and events taking place at the show.

www.southwestaudiofest.com

 

[Pearljam5000]

KEF Blade One Meta

 

[moonlight rainbow dream]

This was an easily predictable result, if you put any stock in what ASR is all about. Modern B&W (proudly) do not target a neutral frequency response. Your ear+brain can adapt or acclimate to the colouration over time, but it quickly falls apart in a direct A/B comparison against more neutral speakers... as shown in Floyd Toole's research and as experienced by you.

Some Stereophile pseudo-anechoic measurements:

B&W 801D4

Magico A5

 

[Ilkless]

Blade One Meta
Genelec 8361 + 371A subs
Kii Three BXT

 

[GXAlan]

I'm looking for a sanity check or some advice here. Before I throw down big $'s on a speaker upgrade, has anyone else demo'd these with the same gear in the same room? Different conclusion? I'm also interested in other directions to look at both price levels here (~ $50k and ~ $90k). Sure loved what I heard, but should probably seek out listening to some other options to make sure there is no buyer's remorse. Let me hear your thoughts on these speakers....or others that should be considered in both of these price ranges.

Thanks in advance!

A couple of good threads to go through are these:

Major life moment: first true Hifi system

Hello lovely Audiophiles, happy to join these forums and finally be in a position to participate in this amazing world! I am about to purchase my first high end Hifi and home theater systems, this is a big life moment for me and has been in the works for the last 35 years. A bit about me, I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The quest for my hyper speaker - Very Large room dilemma

Hi there, A long time enthusiast and lurker here. I am posting this to see if the community can be of any help in helping me find a speaker for my very large great room. I have been an audiophile for many years, and an objectivist one for almost as long. As a physician I am familiar with the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

In the grand scheme of things, spend more on speakers than electronics. The mistake is trying to make sure your electronics are good enough to maximize the performance of your speakers. The B&W 802D4 with premium amplification won’t sound as good as the 801D4 with budget amplification.

The things to consider are room size and speaker appearance. Most people here are fans of premium room correction from electronics like Trinnov and Lyngdorf. Amplification from Benchmark or Purifi based Class D…

 

[cpachris]

Unfortunately I have not demoed the speakers in the title but own the old CM5 and have heard lots of demos from "exotic" dealers like Wilson, Linn, Focal. My recommendation is, for most domestic listening room sizes, you only need $10k-$15k for mains and $5k worth of subs in a well treated ~450sq ft rectangle and a low noise floor for the pinnacle of audio nirvana. Spending $50k+ on just the speakers is sure to bring buyers remorse. If your gonna be in a non-optimal room or listening situation, thats even more reason to not spend too much money on passive speakers, and instead, spend it on treatments and dialing in parametric EQ or room correction software. The only reason to spend $50k on speakers is if your in a giant room or you like the aesthetic aspects. Top performing brands like Genelec and Neumann are kinda ugly in a traditional sense. But to me, they look like they sound amazing. Exotic speakers believe it or not usually has lots of acoustic issues but has beautiful finish cabinets. However, I think the exotic brand Revel with M105, F328B and Salon does measure pretty well for a exotic speaker company and has a nice expensive look to them. I hope this helps

Lol...I'm ashamed to admit that aesthetic is important to me also. The Magico sounded amazing, but was such a plain box compared to the B&W and the Estelons. I'll check out Revel and Salon...thank you.

You might check into Rockport Technologies speakers. The Avior II is in that price range. There is a dealer in OKC.

Also, consider attending the inaugural Southwest Audio Fest in Dallas next weekend, where there will be all kinds of top speaker options being demonstrated. It's at the Anatole Hotel.

Attend | SouthWestAudioFest

Information on what attendees of the SouthWest Audio Fest can expect including show dates & times, accommodation info, and events taking place at the show.

www.southwestaudiofest.com

This dealer was actually was going to host 4 rooms at the Southwest Audio Fest and suggested I come back next weekend. I probably will. I'll check out the Rockport. The problem with "dealers" here in OKC/Edmond...is that there is not as much on hand to see/touch/smell/taste/hear....even though you could order from them. The Dallas dealer I went to...I guess it's ok to name them (Scott Walker)....was loaded with all the good stuff and very willing to let me ask them to swap stuff out so I could compare. Great experience.

KEF Blade One Meta

Will check this one out...thank you.

This was an easily predictable result, if you put any stock in what ASR is all about. Modern B&W (proudly) do not target a neutral frequency response. Your ear+brain can adapt or acclimate to the colouration over time, but it quickly falls apart in a direct A/B comparison against more neutral speakers... as shown in Floyd Toole's research and as experienced by you.

While I've seen the measurements of B&W a thousand times...my personal experience told me I loved it. But...my personal experience was lacking a quick A/B comparison with other brands....and this is what it took to make it sink in to me.

Blade One Meta
Genelec 8361 + 371A subs
Kii Three BXT

That's two suggestions for Blade One...will definitely check it out and the others....thank you.

In the grand scheme of things, spend more on speakers than electronics. The mistake is trying to make sure your electronics are good enough to maximize the performance of your speakers. The B&W 802D4 with premium amplification won’t sound as good as the 801D4 with budget amplification.

The things to consider are room size and speaker appearance. Most people here are fans of premium room correction from electronics like Trinnov and Lyngdorf. Amplification from Benchmark or Purifi based Class D…

Will check out all these brands...and appreciate the advice.


Thank you everyone! I think I'm going to attend the Audio Fest in Dallas next weekend to hear some additional high-end setups, and make a decision shortly thereafter. May go back to Scott Walker and hear the Estelon again. I was really floored the first time. If I'm floored twice...it will be hard to say no.

 

[MarcT]

Lol...I'm ashamed to admit that aesthetic is important to me also. The Magico sounded amazing, but was such a plain box compared to the B&W and the Estelons. I'll check out Revel and Salon...thank you.



This dealer was actually was going to host 4 rooms at the Southwest Audio Fest and suggested I come back next weekend. I probably will. I'll check out the Rockport. The problem with "dealers" here in OKC/Edmond...is that there is not as much on hand to see/touch/smell/taste/hear....even though you could order from them. The Dallas dealer I went to...I guess it's ok to name them (Scott Walker)....was loaded with all the good stuff and very willing to let me ask them to swap stuff out so I could compare. Great experience.



Will check this one out...thank you.



While I've seen the measurements of B&W a thousand times...my personal experience told me I loved it. But...my personal experience was lacking a quick A/B comparison with other brands....and this is what it took to make it sink in to me.



That's two suggestions for Blade One...will definitely check it out and the others....thank you.


Will check out all these brands...and appreciate the advice.


Thank you everyone! I think I'm going to attend the Audio Fest in Dallas next weekend to hear some additional high-end setups, and make a decision shortly thereafter. May go back to Scott Walker and hear the Estelon again. I was really floored the first time. If I'm floored twice...it will be hard to say no.

I'm definitely attending.

 

[boxerfan88]

I'm looking for a sanity check or some advice here.

I’ve heard Magicos at hifi shows last year and I was very impressed. I think you can peg them as reference amongst your 3 choices. Then decide how much you wanna save compared to the sound differences.

Sure loved what I heard, but should probably seek out listening to some other options to make sure there is no buyer's remorse.

If you don’t mind “plain looking” professional monitors, then checkout the far field active monitors from Neumann, Genelac, ATC, D&D, psiaudio.swiss.

 

[GXAlan]

Will check out all these brands...and appreciate the advice.

Cannot go wrong with KEF Blade’s or something like a Revel Salon2 which is “proven” with science. The Magico’s follow the same principles but have better enclosures and aesthetics, but there is a big step up in cost.

My bias has been to move toward active speakers, and I really like the “house sound” of Meyer Sound, which is industrial but solves the circle of confusion where the pros are mixing their content with those speakers.

Last, size matters. High frequency content is absorbed by the atmosphere at audible levels at maybe 12 ft or so. Something that measures high at 1m may not sound bright at 12-15 ft.

It’s also worth trying MBL and Magnepans. They are NOT consistent for everything, but they do offer “special effects” which people like.

I would also listen to the classic B&W Nautilus. Even though it is an outdated design, it is iconic like driving a Porsche 959.

The Yamaha NS5000 is also an option out of left field that is worth listening to before you make your final decision.

 

[Keith_W]

Lol...I'm ashamed to admit that aesthetic is important to me also.

Don't be. It's your living room, and speakers are large. There are many of us who consider speaker aesthetics to be as important as the performance, if not even more important. After all, my wife won't divorce me if it sounds horrible. But if I put a monstrosity in our living room, there will be some tension

Speaking of which, I hope you have given some thought as to how you are going to place your speakers, because this will dictate which speaker you buy. May I ask if you have complete freedom in your living room, or do the speakers have to go somewhere which is not ideal, e.g. close to room boundaries?

 

[Reddoc]

High frequency content is absorbed by the atmosphere at audible levels at maybe 12 ft or so.

Is this about absorption. or are you referring to off-axis effects? 12 feet doesn't sound like much!

 

[GXAlan]

Is this about absorption. or are you referring to off-axis effects? 12 feet doesn't sound like much!

I know! This is science and also why people seem to like B&W even though it measures high.

Pro-Audio and Lighting Calculators : dBs, SPL, time, subwoofers, arrays, Hz, DMX ...

Calculators: sound reinforcement (SPL, voltis, dBm, cable, coverage, wavelength, frequency, time, distance, arrays), lighting (DMX) and projection

www.doctorproaudio.com

Picking 8 kHz, which isn't that far off. At 1m, the air absorbs 0.1 dB

Lenient threshold = 0.5 dB

At 12 ft, you are 0.4 dB down relative to 1m.

But here's the thing. Let's look at 300 Hz. No loss from air absorption.

Or 16 kHz where you have 1.6 dB, and people say that 0.1 is the strict threshold of audibility and 0.5 is the relaxed threshold...

Dr. Toole mentions it in his book, but he doesn't zoom in to show the numbers in normal rooms.

 

[Purité Audio]

Spare a thought to how you might tackle any room mode issues excited by more or less full-range speakers in room.
Keith

 

[sigbergaudio]

Not to imply any unfair play from the dealer (a difference can be down to speaker sensitivity too), but it would be interesting to know if the different speakers were SPL matched (I understand that you likely don't know the answer to this).

 

[sweetsounds]

First up was the B&W 801 D4's,....and I thought they sounded also audition the Estelon XB's. I had been considering the 801 Signature version (blue color increased

They then asked me if I wanted to hear something from Magico that was similarly priced, and swapped speakers for the Magico S3. Again....WOW! The B&W sound that I have lived with and loved for 20+ years....just was not even in the same ball park as the Estelon and Magico speakers.

[...]

I'm looking for a sanity check or some advice here. Before I throw down big $'s on a speaker upgrade, has anyone else demo'd these with the same gear in the same room? Different conclusion? I'm also interested in other directions to look at both price levels here (~ $50k and ~ $90k).

Your journey is close to mine
I own(ed) a pair of B&W 801D1. Loved them.

There always were some deficiencies in voices (I thought). My wife disagreed out of the fear of upgradomania.

I then listened to Magico and that was it. I brought a S5 Mk2 into the same room and everybody was blown away by the difference, not only in voices but the portless design creates an amazing bass.

I won't go back to B&W, Focal or KEF.

The Kii is sonically great as well, maybe worth a listen for you as many dealers lend you a pair for a week or so, but in my room the soundstage wasn't there.

I listened to Magico's upper line Q7/M3/M6/M7 at several dealers and liked the extra accuracy in the higher octaves, but the extra bass of the S5 has better impact. Maybe DSP would take care of it, but dealers normally don't use that.
That being said I heard the M6 at the Munich High End and that arrangement was amazing. So maybe it was the dealer rooms vs my room?

While not thinking about buying, the Estelon Extreme and the Von Schweikert Ultra 7/9 (both in big show rooms) were among the best I ever heard.

Now the big element: your room. It is the room signature which really generates the sound. Even if I could afford these, would they sound better than S5s in my room?

 

[Reddoc]

This is science

Thanks for the comprehensive answer!
I shall explore further

 

[Suono]

I'm also interested in other directions to look at both price levels here (~ $50k and ~ $90k).

PM4 | Avalon Acoustics

PRECISION MONITOR 4 is a full range reference monitor designed specifically for superlative tonal and spatial accuracy. Recovery of fine low-level detail,

www.avalonacoustics.com

 

[fredoamigo]

Now the big element: your room. It is the room signature which really generates the sound. Even if I could afford these, would they sound better than S5s in my room?

In my opinion, this is the essential and fundamental element to take into account. the purchase price above the 20 k threshold means nothing and is not a quality criterion in itself.
Beyond any price considerations, the choice isn't limited to 3 speakers, B&W is not in the game, but that's just my opinion, I like Magico, Blade could be suitable too, Salon2 are at the end of their career so maybe 328? or Perlisten? but if the room is difficult I'd go for big cardoids with dsp like Kii BXT, or Sigberg Audio Manta with sub or I'd wait for the future Dutch & Dutch for this year?