Audiophiles, generally don't like class D amps!

[nygafre]

What exactly does this prove? This is you in search of anecdotal evidence to support something that doesn't exist.

In fact why don't you email Genelec and ask them and report back to us.

I don’t think Porter was trying to prove anything with that anecdote. I have asked a similar question about why Kef used class AB for the tweeters and class D for the woofer, e.g. like in the KEF LS50 Wireless. Simply wondering why

 

[voodooless]

I have asked a similar question about why Kef used class AB for the tweeters and class D for the woofer, e.g. like in the KEF LS50 Wireless. Simply wondering why

Don’t underestimate the marketing factor for this. Especially because there is so much nonsense out there regarding AB vs D. Why not ride the wave and profit. And the people say: see, we were right, even KEF and Genelec are doing it!

 

[voodooless]

Until recently, Class D was very sensitive to load, particularly for the high frequencies.

Yes, we’ve had post filter feedback class D only since almost two decades

My 17 year old Hypex UcD400 amp was already load independent. It still works perfectly.

 

[nygafre]

Don’t underestimate the marketing factor for this. Especially because there is so much nonsense out there regarding AB vs D. Why not ride the wave and profit. And the people say: see, we were right, even KEF and Genelec are doing it!

Yes, I got an understanding that it could be a multitude of reasons why. Marketing, engineering choices/availability of amp modules the producer has in stock etc. I rest peacefully now, but at the time I was ‘suspecting something’.

 

[GXAlan]

Don’t underestimate the marketing factor for this. Especially because there is so much nonsense out there regarding AB vs D. Why not ride the wave and profit. And the people say: see, we were right, even KEF and Genelec are doing it!

Again. Blaming everything on marketing is why we have arguments between objectivists and subjectivists.

Genelec uses Infineon Class D products, unclear implementation. We can see through measurements that the Infineon Class D products can have high frequency variability based upon the load:

MEASUREMENTS: S.M.S.L. SA300 - Infineon MERUS-based Class D desktop amplifier. (Screwed up New York Times - Wirecutter/Butterworth measurements/review?! And Klipsch on TIM.)

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

So it’s not marketing, it’s profit. It’s that Genelec and KEF aren’t putting in flagship Class D electronics in their speakers.

 

[nygafre]

Again. Blaming everything on marketing is why we have arguments between objectivists and subjectivists.

Genelec uses Infineon Class D products, unclear implementation. We can see through measurements that the Infineon Class D products can have high frequency variability based upon the load:

MEASUREMENTS: S.M.S.L. SA300 - Infineon MERUS-based Class D desktop amplifier. (Screwed up New York Times - Wirecutter/Butterworth measurements/review?! And Klipsch on TIM.)

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

So it’s not marketing, it’s profit. It’s that Genelec and KEF aren’t putting in flagship Class D electronics in their speakers.

What does this last statements mean; ‘it’s not marketing, it’s profit’?

 

[voodooless]

Again. Blaming everything on marketing is why we have arguments between objectivists and subjectivists.

I’m not blaming, I’m just saying that there may be a multitude of reasons.

Genelec uses Infineon Class D products, unclear implementation. We can see through measurements that the Infineon Class D products can have high frequency variability based upon the load:

MEASUREMENTS: S.M.S.L. SA300 - Infineon MERUS-based Class D desktop amplifier. (Screwed up New York Times - Wirecutter/Butterworth measurements/review?! And Klipsch on TIM.)

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

Why would that matter? They are active systems. It’s ultra simple to compensate for this.

So it’s not marketing, it’s profit. It’s that Genelec and KEF aren’t putting in flagship Class D electronics in their speakers.

Oh, I’m sure profit (or rather cost) is another driver. Just one of many.

 

[GXAlan]

Yes, we’ve had post filter feedback class D only since almost two decades

My 17 year old Hypex UcD400 amp was already load independent. It still works perfectly.

Yes, but UcD implementations aren’t being used in Genelec.

You have to look at the history and experiences of Class D during the original history, the era of Flying Mole and Sharp.

Flying Mole CA-S10 integrated amplifier Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements Before performing any measurements on an amplifier, I precondition it by running it for 60 minutes at one-third its specified power into 8 ohms—the worst case for an amplifier with a class-B output stage. With a class-D amplifier such as the Flying Mole CA-S10, however...

www.stereophile.com

Sharp SM-SX100 digital integrated amplifier Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements Although the Sharp SM-SX100 is really a power D/A converter, I first examined its performance as a conventional integrated amplifier. With analog sources and the volume control set to "128," the '100's maximum voltage gain (into 8 ohms) was 36.7dB with the rear-panel...

www.stereophile.com

 

[voodooless]

Yes, but UcD implementations aren’t being used in Genelec.

That’s besides the point. You claimed it to be a new fangled thing, I showed it was not.

That Genelec ignored this fact is not my problem.

 

[GXAlan]

What does this last statements mean; ‘it’s not marketing, it’s profit’?

They aren’t choosing Class AB for tweeter because it helps with their marketing. They are choosing it because for the same cost of goods, a cheap Class AB amp is better than a cheap Class D amp when powering a tweeter.

They could use flagship Class D topologies for the tweeter.

Why would that matter? They are active systems. It’s ultra simple to compensate for this.

Why don’t we go zero negative feedback for all amplification in active systems? It’s ultra simple to compensate.

 

[voodooless]

Why don’t we go zero negative feedback for all amplification in active systems? It’s ultra simple to compensate.

That just a straw man, and you know it. Pre filter feedback just gives you a response error. Simple to fix with active systems. You can even do it passively with a impedance correction circuit. This obviously costs some money, also if done with active analog electronics. With DSP, it’s basically free.

 

[GXAlan]

That just a straw man, and you know it. Pre filter feedback just gives you a response error. Simple to fix with active systems. You can even do it passively with a impedance correction circuit. This obviously costs some money, also if done with active analog electronics. With DSP, it’s basically free.

Sure, but no different than suggesting that the main reason that Genelec uses Class AB for the tweeters is marketing to audio-fools.

Looking at 100W output back then, the cost of goods was lower for Class AB until you factored in the heatsinks. That would be a great paper to make my heatsink supplier take a lower profit margin lest they lose all my business.

 

[voodooless]

Sure, but no different than suggesting that the main reason that Genelec uses Class AB for the tweeters is marketing to audio-fools.

It is very difficult. The one is nonsense, the other is at the very least plausible. Mind you, it would not be the only reason.

Looking at 100W output back then, the cost of goods was lower for Class AB until you factored in the heatsinks. That would be a great paper to make my heatsink supplier take a lower profit margin lest they lose all my business.

Fully agree with that. How good is it to have the cheapest solution and be able to tell a nice story to the prospective buyers?

 

[NTK]

Sure, but no different than suggesting that the main reason that Genelec uses Class AB for the tweeters is marketing to audio-fools.

Looking at 100W output back then, the cost of goods was lower for Class AB until you factored in the heatsinks. That would be a great paper to make my heatsink supplier take a lower profit margin lest they lose all my business.

Looks like Genelec have changed their mind on class D.

 

[nygafre]

They aren’t choosing Class AB for tweeter because it helps with their marketing. They are choosing it because for the same cost of goods, a cheap Class AB amp is better than a cheap Class D amp when powering a tweeter.

They could use flagship Class D topologies for the tweeter.


Why don’t we go zero negative feedback for all amplification in active systems? It’s ultra simple to compensate.

Thank’s for the clarification.

 

[GXAlan]

The problem with audiophile forums is that even when we generally agree, we find ways to argue about the minutia. I am guilty of fanning the flames too.

I understand a subjectivist’s historical opinion that Class D sounds bad based upon objective historical reasons. I also have voted with my wallet. My most expensive and overall best amplification component is the Class D, Marantz PM-10 which retails at 9999 € and $8999. I have spent more than enough time and money, measuring and sharing the results.

 

[theREALdotnet]

The problem with audiophile forums is that even when we generally agree, we find ways to argue about the minutia.

And that is objectively fatiguing.

 

[nygafre]

During my studies I read a 20+ page article about objectivism - that was quite fatiguing too

 

[NoxMorbis]

I don't see any benefit from using demeaning labels for people who have strong belief systems, it is my hope that a greater number of people will learn and understand why their stereo does what it does based on science and that they hear what they want to hear due to psychology.

Long may we banish the charlatans that market nonsense and the easiest way to stop this is for people not to buy their stuff. If companies start to realise that the truth and perfected products sell, they might actually join the program and improve the stock. Its a big ask I know!

Surely the world must be a better place when we have more understanding, fingers crossed anyway.

Enjoy your listening and of course your science :0)

Well, it was jesting, right? Surely a better place where people are not so thin skinned, also? In other words, we should be able to laugh at ourselves, securely.

However, strong beliefs are not the same as true beliefs.

 

[NoxMorbis]

Sadly, I believe you are right Keith, back in 2017 or was it 2018? before I knew of this place I spent several hours at my dealer listening to version III of this speaker, I wanted to like them, they look impressive, the sound was initially impressive, but I realised that even with my 50+ year old hearing I would not be taking them home to stay.

*Edit, sorry I have just realised I was listening to the Forte III but, I suspect they have a similar sound signature in the treble.*

Can't you just turn the treble down a little? I have the Klipsch R51-M and I had them toed in. After seeing a review where the reviewer said to toe them straight ahead, I did, and wow, no more harsh tweeters. They sound better than they ever have, just that little toe adjustment. It amazed me really.