Audiophiles, generally don't like class D amps!

[JRS]

Yes you have:



How does that even work? You can’t hear a difference but a difference will accumulate over time?

oh I can relate to the claim--some stuff sounds fine for a while and then becomes fatiguing--in fact I'd hazard to say a significant portion of gear has a 2 to 3 hour time limit. At least for me. I cant cite the source but somewhere I recall directivity errors causing fatigue as your brain struggles to find a coherent source for the mixed message. But that's a speaker issue, and not generally associated with neutral amplifiers. But neither do I rule out the possibility of electronics possibly exacerbating these fatiguing properties.

I had cause to to consider this just the other nite listening to some big band jazz in a small auditorium that was loud--if it were that loud in a house, people would be freaking out from the reflections, begging for you to turn it down. But in a natural space, it sounded great instead of grating. BTW it was partially reinforced by some big JBL monitors on either side and just in front of the stage.

It (listener fatigue) definitely impacts my choice of material on certain speakers and many of them measure pretty well. The first few songs may sound fine but once you hit the fatigue threshold, it is hard to ignore. So feeling some pain expressed by the poster who has spent a considerable amount of money and time on the system.

 

[Porter]

oh I can relate to the claim--some stuff sounds fine for a while and then becomes fatiguing--in fact I'd hazard to say a significant portion of gear has a 2 to 3 hour time limit. At least for me. I cant cite the source but somewhere I recall directivity errors causing fatigue as your brain struggles to find a coherent source for the mixed message. But that's a speaker issue, and not generally associated with neutral amplifiers. But neither do I rule out the possibility of electronics possibly exacerbating these fatiguing properties.

I had cause to to consider this just the other nite listening to some big band jazz in a small auditorium that was loud--if it were that loud in a house, people would be freaking out from the reflections, begging for you to turn it down. But in a natural space, it sounded great instead of grating. BTW it was partially reinforced by some big JBL monitors on either side and just in front of the stage.

It (listener fatigue) definitely impacts my choice of material on certain speakers and many of them measure pretty well. The first few songs may sound fine but once you hit the fatigue threshold, it is hard to ignore. So feeling some pain expressed by the poster who has spent a considerable amount of money and time on the system.

Exactly. Thank you. I don't get why this is such a weirdly charged issue here.

Though everything seems like a weirdly charged issue here, biasing strongly toward absolutist rhetoric, so maybe that's just how this particular group of people has chosen to cope with the terrifying and inescapable indignities of human uncertainty and differential perception.

 

[JRS]

Exactly. Thank you. I don't get why this is such a weirdly charged issue here.

Though everything seems like a weirdly charged issue here, biasing strongly toward absolutist rhetoric, so maybe that's just how this particular group of people has chosen to cope with the terrifying and inescapable indignities of human uncertainty and differential perception.

I'm pretty hard core skeptic, and have spent a small fortune trying to find audio nirvana, and perplexing as it may be, the fact of the matter was that in too many cases the more expensive the system, the worse it became. And having your audio dealer on speed dial is no way to enjoy music. " There it is again--that damn midrange glare is killing me, I thought these Magicalloy interconnects would fix the problem! I spent several hundred bucks on these high rez downloads and another bill for some fine single malt, and I have mental dental floss for playback."

 

[SIY]

Exactly. Thank you. I don't get why this is such a weirdly charged issue here.

Though everything seems like a weirdly charged issue here, biasing strongly toward absolutist rhetoric, so maybe that's just how this particular group of people has chosen to cope with the terrifying and inescapable indignities of human uncertainty and differential perception.

Science folks need evidence to accept extraordinary claims. No more complicated than that. Handwaving is not the same as decent controls.

 

[CtheArgie]

My mother in law becomes fatiguing. I know other people with that effect. Never audio. Unless the music sucks or I am physically exhausted.

 

[Porter]

I'm pretty hard core skeptic, and have spent a small fortune trying to find audio nirvana, and perplexing as it may be, the fact of the matter was that in too many cases the more expensive the system, the worse it became. And having your audio dealer on speed dial is no way to enjoy music. " There it is again--that damn midrange glare is killing me, I thought these Magicalloy interconnects would fix the problem! I spent several hundred bucks on these high rez downloads and another bill for some fine single malt, and I have mental dental floss for playback."

Oh I totally agree with you, the audiophile woo shit is absolutely insane. People buying $800 IEC power cables that they plug into $2/ft home wiring on the other side of the wall plug, and special wooden blocks under cables, and all sorts of other totally insane behavior. $1500 "audiophile network switches" which are just $20 Netgear units with some extra glue squirted inside. I get it. The stuff is completely bananas.

Bench measurements of electronics are a great data point in the search for good gear. But some seem to believe that bench measurements are the ONLY thing that are knowable, and all human qualitative perception is a series of baseless lies.

There's a middle ground though, that doesn't involve rigid denial of all human ability to hear music and like (or prefer) one thing over another. Surely reasonable people can agree on at least that?

 

[Porter]

Science folks need evidence to accept extraordinary claims. No more complicated than that. Handwaving is not the same as decent controls.

Someone wants evidence that my personal experience of a thing is a certain way?

That's ... sort of wild, don't you think?

Do the same people ask for evidence from people who are colorblind? What would that even look like? Do they yell loudly near people who claim to be deaf, just to see if they are faking it?

"Science" is a stretch of a label to claim regarding the rejection of individual human auditory preferences as not a real or valid phenomenon.

 

[SIY]

Someone wants evidence that my personal experience of a thing is a certain way?

Yes. You made an unlikely claim and you haven't implemented any basic controls to verify or validate it. Peeking is KNOWN to give spurious results, this isn't anything unusual.

That's how science works.

 

[ahofer]

Someone wants evidence that my personal experience of a thing is a certain way?

No, they/we want evidence that it was the equipment that made the difference, not your brain.

 

[restorer-john]

When equipment becomes fatiguing, I've found it's usually my state of mind at the time. Many times I have proclaimed something doesn't sound 'right' in the middle of a listening session, only to change out an amplifier or two and immediately hear a miraculous improvement or even the complete opposite. The expectation of change, even a tiny change drives the outcome.

That said, there are plenty of fatiguing components in my huge HiFi collection, particularly some amplifiers. Ones that measure very well, have all the features, looks and build quality I value. But they simply become fatiguing in the long term, even when operated well within their otherwise linear regions. Push amplifiers and all bets are off. Some become very ugly, very fast and others not so much.

I would say most small to medium powered amplifiers, with good to excellent measured performance, when run at somewhat elevated levels into typical modern, low efficiency speakers will be experiencing clipping events on regular basis. Clipping audibility and severity varies massively from amplifier to amplifier.

 

[Waxx]

I know listening fatigue, i got it also with some speakers, and it's speaker depending (indpendent of amp system) and mostly but not exclusivly linked to bright speakers in my subjective experience. Kiplish speakers with unmodified crossovers are terrible I think and one of the worst offenders in my book. That Kiplischhorn i was talking about is also like that, i can't listen to that speaker for a long time. I heared others (the same type) with heavy modified crossovers (lowering the treble and phase aligned) that are a lot better to listen to in my personal experience.

But i see it as a subjective interpretation, it's not a faulty speaker or so, it's how my subjective brain interpret the signal. I also got it with way more neutral speakers (Genelec) but not with all of them (Neumann or ATC monitors don't have that effect at all on me and are equal neutral low distortion), and i don't understand why yet but also would like to know the objective reason behind it (aka what causes it that my brain goes nuts on a certain speaker).

But i'm relative sure it's not that amp that causes it, The NAD you use is just a very neutral amp that does not mask anything.

 

[Porter]

I don't believe anyone is asking for evidence that you are fooling us. The evidence asked is not for us, but for you. One of the functions of science is to see whether a person is fooling themself. Logic, discipline, dispassionate controls and all that stuff, y'know?

The Scientific Method was created in an attempt to prevent human frailties and prejudices from interfering with a clearer view of the universe and its properties.

Jim

But again... you're asking for *evidence* that I have experienced listener fatigue? Do you not see the inherent problem with the question?

 

[Talisman]

But again... you're asking for *evidence* that I have experienced listener fatigue? Do you not see the inherent problem with the question?

Do you have the ability to blind listen for many hours over several days? if I could establish with certainty that the days when fatigue sets in are the ones when you use Nad then that would be enough for me

 

[valerianf]

"Why...(Class D for low and mid drivers, Class AB for treble)?"
The answer can be very short: because Genelec does not want any issue in the high frequencies that may occur when using one Class D amp for all speakers.
Remember my first post: I was proposing the same using the bi-amping inputs of the Klipsch speaker.

 

[badboygolf16v]

Here's an interesting thing... why would a company like Genelec, renowned for their active monitor technology and audio fidelity, use differential amp topologies (Class D for low and mid drivers, Class AB for treble) on many of their flagship full-size monitors?

They're old models. I imagine when they were developed Genelec weren't happy with the Class D amps at their disposal for treble.

"Here's an interesting thing." Genelec's flagships, the Ones, use Class D treble.

 

[BDWoody]

so maybe that's just how this particular group of people has chosen to cope with the terrifying and inescapable indignities of human uncertainty and differential perception.

Actually, most of us recognize that without controls all that uncertainty can be easily misleading. You seem to be aware of the challenges, but rather than try to figure out how to deal with them, you prefer to let them be your guide.

 

[FrankW]

But again... you're asking for *evidence* that I have experienced listener fatigue?

Yes, since all you've claimed is viewer belief fatigue. Trust your ears for once, not your eyes-beliefs.
If you can't, we all understand.
Shifting Burden of Proof in 3,2,1...

 

[JktHifi]

I might get crucified for it here, but I'm one of the people who doesn't particularly jive with the sound signature of some Class D amps, specifically in the treble. I don't know if it's the different presentation of harmonics or what exactly, but it is very fatiguing to my ear over time.

I have several thousand hours of listening on my NAD M10 on several different types of speakers, both direct (unadjusted) output and also tweaked via Dirac. It's slightly better with Dirac but the lingering high frequency difference is still there. Current speakers are Klipsch Heresy IV, so it's not a "difficult load" problem.

When I started using the pre-outs to a Schiit Vidar (class AB) it improved dramatically. Fatigue dropped immensely and now I don't notice it at all. Seems like an utterly unnecessary thing to need to do, though. If the Hypex nCore in the M10 is even remotely what they claim it to be, it should be almost entirely transparent, and I don't find that to be true in practice.

If anyone has an opinion on this, please share. I'm all ears (pun intended).

I’m with you but there will be no soundbar or active speakers without compact Class D amps.
I’m very grateful there’s soundbar for my TV in livingroom, space-saving, reduced electricity bill, and sometimes listen to music from YouTube.

 

[Porter]

"Why...(Class D for low and mid drivers, Class AB for treble)?"
The answer can be very short: because Genelec does not want any issue in the high frequencies that may occur when using one Class D amp for all speakers.
Remember my first post: I was proposing the same using the bi-amping inputs of the Klipsch speaker.

I agree with you 100%. What I don't understand is why there's a weird "ideological compliance team" here trying to say that the only reason I've experienced this is some sort of personal bias unrelated to what I actually hear.

 

[SIY]

I agree with you 100%. What I don't understand is why there's a weird "ideological compliance team" here trying to say that the only reason I've experienced this is some sort of personal bias unrelated to what I actually hear.

What you don't understand is that you may not actually "hear" anything. You haven't done Basic Experiment One. As one of the others suggested, you have to first determine whether the difference is in the equipment or in your brain.