ATC SCM19 Bookshelf Speaker Review

[gr-e]

Geoff posted some directivity plots in his blog: https://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2015/11/04/bo-tech-intuitive-directivity-plots/

 

[ctrl]

Geoff posted some directivity plots in his blog: https://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2015/11/04/bo-tech-intuitive-directivity-plots/

Thanks for the link. Pretty impressive what is possible with the Beolab90.

 

[Archsam]

Why sorry? don't be ashamed of your roots.

I think that's my Canadian roots showing lol

 

[LTig]

My first post & a question if I may Ilkless.
Would you kindly name two or three of the modern & technically superior speakers you seem to reference?[..]I only hope they are within my budget.

That depends on your budget. Superior speakers are almost all active speakers, with increasing use of DSP crossovers. It started more than 20 years ago in the pro business (Genelec, Neumann/former Klein&Hummel, JBL) and now finds its way into the consumer business (Kef LS50 active, Kii Three, Grimm Audio, D&D, ...).

My DAC (thanks to this site) & amplifier are a done deal but I am wondering if I have somehow taken a wrong turn with loud speakers.

If your amp is a done deal you may have taken a wrong turn.

 

[anmpr1]

I like it. Saving up my pennies. I wonder where I can hear them. No Axpona this year, maybe 2021?
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bang-olufsen-beolab-90-loudspeaker
@Kal Rubinson any comments to add to your fascinating review?

Unless the price of copper explodes you better save up more than pennies. They ain't giving it away.

 

[ReaderZ]

Thanks to Amir for elucidating another of the myriad ways to waste money in this hobby.

Perhaps the ATC and PMC fanboys who criticize properly engineered loudspeakers (M2s, Kii Threes, 8Cs) as toys will go home now. And yes, I know Amir hasn't measured everything ATC and PMC make, but the deficiencies here are so severe and so unnecessary as to cast doubt on those companies' engineering capabilities.

That's like saying performance of B class is indicative of G wagon. He doesn't need to test all of them, of course, anything ATC 50 or above would indeed demonstrate actual engineering capability of the company.

 

[Purité Audio]

It would be interesting to see how Amir’s measurements correlate with existing.


Keith

 

[amirm]

It would be interesting to see how Amir’s measurements correlate with existing.

Ouch, they are over 100 pounds each!

 

[MZKM]

Ouch, they are over 100 pounds each!

I have a pair of towers that are 90.5 pounds each, they currently reside on my second floor, all I can say is that it was a while before I moved them up there.

I wish I had measurements of mine, Sensible Sound reviewed/measured them, but the measurements are omitted in the online text copy I found, the descriptions of the measurements are good though. This review was in 2002 and the reviewer even did a weighted average of horizontal measurements to simulate in-room performance!

 

[Dialectic]

That's like saying performance of B class is indicative of G wagon. He doesn't need to test all of them, of course, anything ATC 50 or above would indeed demonstrate actual engineering capability of the company.

The smaller Mercedes Benz models are much better than cars costing 1/20 the price. The ATC and PMC models tested here are needlessly terrible, worse than small $200 speakers that have been tested here.

So my point stands.

 

[ROOSKIE]

That's like saying performance of B class is indicative of G wagon. He doesn't need to test all of them, of course, anything ATC 50 or above would indeed demonstrate actual engineering capability of the company.

No, I think it the MOST important thing that a companies more affordable models are reasonably well engineered.
Only the most shameful and worst of companies would do otherwise.

 

[dfuller]

This is... odd. My impression with ATC pro-level speakers is that they are (if anything) a little bit relaxed in that region.

 

[wwenze]

It would be interesting to see how Amir’s measurements correlate with existing.


Keith

To be fair these are bigger, more expensive, are ported, and do sound proper. (Tho they still fail to cover the entire bass frequency range which is weird for something this size and price)

It's as if the cheaper speakers from these companies (as in any that sells expensive speakers) are cost-cut and gimped but justified because they are lower price. Like Apple and Samsung's lower end phones are horrid value compared to Huawei and Xiaomi, for example.

But I don't ever remember seeing people being all proud of iPhone SE compared to, say, any phone with 1080p screen at a lower price.

That's like saying performance of B class is indicative of G wagon. He doesn't need to test all of them, of course, anything ATC 50 or above would indeed demonstrate actual engineering capability of the company.

But is that engineering good enough for £10,000? You can almost buy the passive part of M2 for that price.

 

[JohnYang1997]

@amirm wasn't in a good mood today .

The ATC was expected to perform better, true, but we have seen worse. Performance score isn’t that bad.

Eq’ing the 600-1000hz range will improve overall performance a lot, and help with the resonance/distortion around 700hz.
You will have to use multi subs anyway, as with any speaker, so bass will be adjusted.

I am not suggesting that this ATC should be “recommended”, but headless is harsh.

It's not a bad score if it's less than 500 dollars. It's the price and the "reputation".

 

[Lao Lu]

A few measurements of the mid from Troels Gravesen http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ATC-SM75-150.htm

The following quote is Troels' take on the powered ATC 3-ways at Munich Hi-Fi a few years ago: "I didn't get to hear any ATC speakers last year. Here we have the SCM 50 ASLT and to make a long story short, if you have 2 x 9.400,- EUR and can live with the size of this speaker (relative to the room it has to load), look no further. Great speaker."

I believe that Jeff Bagby also tested ATC’s midrange dome and had mild praise for it (http://studio-hifi.com/images/ATC75-150S_JeffBagby.pdf).

Amir's results bring a few questions to mind. How old was this first-generation model 19? Had it been compromised in some way? I have the new generation 19's placed in a small room in the corner a mere four inches from the back wall driven by the Benchmark Amp/Dac 3 combination; light on bass is not even a remotely conceivable impression as I get some bass from the upper 30s on test tracks. When I decided to buy the ATCs I had just heard the first generation Kef R300s across the street ( I had owned Kef Reference 102s for more than a decade) and then I listened to the ATC 11s driven by an Outlaw amp playing Herbert von Karajan's recording of Sibelius' 4 and 5th: it was no contest, their impact was jaw-dropping. I was only relying on my subjective impressions, but my benchmark has always been live music (I have heard the Tokyo String Quartet play the Paganini Strads [ a set of four!!!] twice.) John Mark’s review of the second-generation 19 is also revealing (they became his loudspeakers of choice) and he has experience recording classical music. The ATCs sound natural and have real meat on their bones, and the bass roll-off from sealed designs falls far less precipitously than ported designs.

I am someone who cannot afford the very best, which I heard twice in recording engineer Winston Ma’s amazing room, and the ATCs 19v2 in a small room give (for a fraction of the cost) at least 90% of that level of musical satisfaction.
To conclude, these results are really surprising, and I look forward to reading what others have to say.

 

[Lao Lu]

I don’t know which speaker you are referring to, but the new ATC 19 available on the European market now is this one
http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/hi-fi/loudspeakers/entry-series/scm19/

View attachment 71852

As you can see is a completely different speaker, curved cabinet to start with. It costs around 2500€.

So what we have here is an old version of a speaker measured, price is irrelevant.


Please read carefully what I have written:

Yes, and changes to the cross-over as well, along with an entirely re-engineered cabinet.

 

[BostonJack]

The arrangement of the tweeters should lead in the upper frequency range to strong comb filter effects in the listening window.
Depending on the frequency at which the midrange crossover is located, comb filter effects may also occur there.
UPDATE:
Unless, of course, the tweeters are individually controlled and the top tweeter only transmits the uppermost frequency ranges.
The same applies to the midrange speakers.

View attachment 71920

Here are a few quotes from a test of these speakers:
Audio-Magazin 04-2017:

Lordy, that is a speaker that a Dr. Who fan could love. It would give me nightmares.

 

[Lao Lu]

Do you think a company that has been areoind this long has finally figured out how to design competently performing speakers with their latest edition? Did they also replace the designers?

This speaker is another example of an overpriced POS waste of money. Good for bragging rights among audiophile types but incompetently designed and easily outperformed by inexpensive competitors. You may not get the heavy weight and real wood cabinets but that’s not why most people choose a speaker. Perhaps ATC owners care more about audio bling than good sound. This company should be embarrassed by these results. Another audio myth busted by ASR.

Wish I could say I was surprised but after the PMC review, nothing surprises me.

ATC and "bling" ? I thought one of their selling points was their accuracy, and customers overlooked their staid appearance......

 

[Lao Lu]

ATC and "bling" ? I thought one of their selling points was their accuracy, and customers overlooked their staid appearance......

PS--Wasn't the 11 and the 19 inspiration for Benchmark's entry into loudspeakers:
The Return to Acoustic Suspension

"We know that small ported loudspeakers have become fashionable. We don’t do fashion. The SMS1 is an acoustic suspension loudspeaker. By nature, it is more linear than a ported design. It can also produce impressively deep bass. The trade-off is efficiency."

 

[Ilkless]

The following quote is Troels' take on the powered ATC 3-ways at Munich Hi-Fi a few years ago: "I didn't get to hear any ATC speakers last year. Here we have the SCM 50 ASLT and to make a long story short, if you have 2 x 9.400,- EUR and can live with the size of this speaker (relative to the room it has to load), look no further. Great speaker."

I believe that Jeff Bagby also tested ATC’s midrange dome and had mild praise for it (http://studio-hifi.com/images/ATC75-150S_JeffBagby.pdf).

Amir's results bring a few questions to mind. How old was this first-generation model 19? Had it been compromised in some way? I have the new generation 19's placed in a small room in the corner a mere four inches from the back wall driven by the Benchmark Amp/Dac 3 combination; light on bass is not even a remotely conceivable impression as I get some bass from the upper 30s on test tracks. When I decided to buy the ATCs I had just heard the first generation Kef R300s across the street ( I had owned Kef Reference 102s for more than a decade) and then I listened to the ATC 11s driven by an Outlaw amp playing Herbert von Karajan's recording of Sibelius' 4 and 5th: it was no contest, their impact was jaw-dropping. I was only relying on my subjective impressions, but my benchmark has always been live music (I have heard the Tokyo String Quartet play the Paganini Strads [ a set of four!!!] twice.) John Mark’s review of the second-generation 19 is also revealing (they became his loudspeakers of choice) and he has experience recording classical music. The ATCs sound natural and have real meat on their bones, and the bass roll-off from sealed designs falls far less precipitously than ported designs.

I am someone who cannot afford the very best, which I heard twice in recording engineer Winston Ma’s amazing room, and the ATCs 19v2 in a small room give (for a fraction of the cost) at least 90% of that level of musical satisfaction.
To conclude, these results are really surprising, and I look forward to reading what others have to say.

The usual British monitor apologist playbook at work again...

- Ironically having to fall back on anecdotal experience and intuition despite the manufacturer holding itself up to be an engineering outfit, when the engineering falls apart

- Appeals to authority

- Discredit results by casting FUD and conveniently ignoring other independent data points already in this thread, including one that conclusively shows how a competitor's mid dome has distortion so low it requires 10 times more power input and twice the loudness to reach the same distortion as the ATC dome.