Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[tjcinnamon]

What a rabbit hole to go down. What size room do you have the front wides in?

22’ wide by 10’ deep by 7’ high

 

[Shimrra Jamaane]

22’ wide by 10’ deep by 7’ high

Yeah I'm working with a 15' by 11' by 8' room which is just not long enough to make front wides work I don't think. The LR are 8' away from my side surrounds so any front wide would be only 4' away from both which probably wouldn't work well right?

 

[tjcinnamon]

Yeah I'm working with a 15' by 11' by 8' room which is just not long enough to make front wides work I don't think. The LR are 8' away from my side surrounds so any front wide would be only 4' away from both which probably wouldn't work well right?

Hmm. Likely not needed but I’m not sure.

 

[Frank207be]

Here is what I want to build with ART in mind: A riser for our living room with large enough subwoofers to cope with the high demands (compression) of ART correction. All woofers will fire into the rear and side walls.

Back sub: 4x 15"
Corner left sub 2x 21"
Corner right sub 2x 21"
Side right sub 2x 15" (connects with right surround channel under 150Hz)
Side left sub 2x 15" (connects with left surround channel under 150Hz)

The build will be sturdy so I have no fear that resonances will occur.
The front subs will be 4x 18" and the LCR speakers will also be large enough for ART support.

Edit: In total I'll have 9 ART support channels down to 30Hz

My question is about the space that should be kept between the subs and the wall? I'll keep a large enough distance avoid coupling but what about resonances? I'm thinking of creating a baffle with a 10° slope?

 

[abdo123]

Here is what I want to build with ART in mind: A riser for our living room with large enough subwoofers to cope with the high demands (compression) of ART correction. All woofers will fire into the rear and side walls.

Back sub: 4x 15"
Corner left sub 2x 21"
Corner right sub 2x 21"
Side right sub 2x 15" (connects with right surround channel under 150Hz)
Side left sub 2x 15" (connects with left surround channel under 150Hz)

The build will be sturdy so I have no fear that resonances will occur.
The front subs will be 4x 18" and the LCR speakers will also be large enough for ART support.

Edit: In total I'll have 9 ART support channels down to 30Hz

My question is about the space that should be kept between the subs and the wall? I'll keep a large enough distance avoid coupling but what about resonances? I'm thinking of creating a baffle with a 10° slope?

Is this for a cinema for a military base or something?

Like i really be considering if my plans to extend my two 12 inch to four 12 inch subs an overkill in a domestic setting.

 

[tjcinnamon]

Here is what I want to build with ART in mind: A riser for our living room with large enough subwoofers to cope with the high demands (compression) of ART correction. All woofers will fire into the rear and side walls.

Back sub: 4x 15"
Corner left sub 2x 21"
Corner right sub 2x 21"
Side right sub 2x 15" (connects with right surround channel under 150Hz)
Side left sub 2x 15" (connects with left surround channel under 150Hz)

The build will be sturdy so I have no fear that resonances will occur.
The front subs will be 4x 18" and the LCR speakers will also be large enough for ART support.

Edit: In total I'll have 9 ART support channels down to 30Hz

My question is about the space that should be kept between the subs and the wall? I'll keep a large enough distance avoid coupling but what about resonances? I'm thinking of creating a baffle with a 10° slope?

Seems overkill. You could likely get 1 sealed 12” sub for support duty and pretty much max out its usefulness.

I’ll be using 2 SVS3000 micros (wired) and they are stable to 30Hz especially at the lower volumes ART is looking for.

Edit: That said, I get the fun factor of building something wild. If you are looking for tactile response, I can promise that provides more value than a reduction in decay times. Tactile nearfield was a game changer.

 

[Frank207be]

Is this for a cinema for a military base or something?

Like i really be considering if my plans to extend my two 12 inch to four 12 inch subs an overkill in a domestic setting.

I already use the 4x 21" subs behind me and 4x 15" in front with DLBC and it is very nice to have a system that doesn't even show the slightest sign of compression and distortion down to 15Hz.

Integrating them into a riser is the perfect way to hide all equipment and make it a stealth/sleeper home cinema.

 

[Frank207be]

Seems overkill. You could likely get 1 sealed 12” sub for support duty and pretty much max out its usefulness.

I’ll be using 2 SVS3000 micros (wired) and they are stable to 30Hz especially at the lower volumes ART is looking for.

Edit: That said, I get the fun factor of building something wild. If you are looking for tactile response, I can promise that provides more value than a reduction in decay times. Tactile nearfield was a game changer.

It's part fun factor, part hiding huge subs in a normal living room. Tactile is no problem even with the actual set and DLBC.

Woofers are not extremely expensive and if you know woodworking you can build affordable custom DIY passive subs.

I also want to maximise the ART correction capabilities down to the lowest room mode. With my Denon I have 4 sub outs + fullrange LCR and surrounds so I expect very good ART results.

 

[tjcinnamon]

I already use the 4x 21" subs behind me and 4x 15" in front with DLBC and it is very nice to have a system that doesn't even show the slightest sign of compression and distortion down to 15Hz.

Integrating them into a riser is the perfect way to hide all equipment and make it a stealth/sleeper home cinema.

How do you make it so DLBC doesn’t turn down your subs. It seems it tries to keep it close in volume to the mains and I like to have Tactile Response. The subs are so hot because they are close to the mic. Dirac really wants to lower them even if I “EQ” them to the max of +12dB.

In my denon, once DLBC is engaged, it won’t allow adjusting the gain on the subs.

 

[tjcinnamon]

How do you make it so DLBC doesn’t turn down your subs. It seems it tries to keep it close in volume to the mains and I like to have Tactile Response. The subs are so hot because they are close to the mic. Dirac really wants to lower them even if I “EQ” them to the max of +12dB.

In my denon, once DLBC is engaged, it won’t allow adjusting the gain on the subs.

I think I figured it out. It I can lower the mains with the custom curve and if I up the EQ, I can get it where I like it

 

[Frank207be]

I think I figured it out. It I can lower the mains with the custom curve and if I up the EQ, I can get it where I like it

That's a good workaround.

Here I've disabled all EQ and I get more deep and tactile bass than ever I could wish for. I've even dialed down the gain controls on my Crown XLS2502 one notch as it get too much at times.

Look at the blue Dirac DLBC REW measurement stereo with subs. Red is standard MultEQ-X and green is MultEQ-X after several hours of tweaking. I've not yet tried the latest MultEQ-X but will do so when the riser is ready.

 

[tjcinnamon]

That's a good workaround.

Here I've disabled all EQ and I get more deep and tactile bass than ever I could wish for. I've even dialed down the gain controls on my Crown XLS2502 one notch as it get too much at times.

Look at the blue Dirac DLBC REW measurement stereo with subs. Red is standard MultEQ-X and green is MultEQ-X after several hours of tweaking. I've not yet tried the latest MultEQ-X but will do so when the riser is ready.

I have MQX as well as Dirac. I loved MQX because of Dynamic EQ and the flexibility. I'm prepping for ART, so I'm getting used to the inflexibility of Dirac. For the TR I really have to avoid EQ'ing the subs within Dirac because I sum 4 subs via MiniDSP where 2 which are nearfield and those aren't eq'd, I just adjust the delay; the other 2 subs are solely to smooth the response. The TR ones, have a low-pass at 60Hz because it doesn't impact TR and just makes it harder to calibrate.

So with Dirac, what I'll have to do to leverage ART which will require it to EQ the subs, will be to create a custom curve that follows the curve shown on the screen then it won't apply much EQ to it but will still factor it in for ART.

So it's gonna take a lot of experimenting to get it where I want it. My mains are actually are the speaker that can dig the deepest in my system because they are ported. They are dual 10's per speaker and are flat to 23Hz. Whereas my sealed DIY Dayton HO/HF are on bridged crowns but because they are sealed they do go as deep but summing them they get deep in aggregate.

 

[Frank207be]

I have MQX as well as Dirac. I loved MQX because of Dynamic EQ and the flexibility. I'm prepping for ART, so I'm getting used to the inflexibility of Dirac. For the TR I really have to avoid EQ'ing the subs within Dirac because I sum 4 subs via MiniDSP where 2 which are nearfield and those aren't eq'd, I just adjust the delay; the other 2 subs are solely to smooth the response. The TR ones, have a low-pass at 60Hz because it doesn't impact TR and just makes it harder to calibrate.

So with Dirac, what I'll have to do to leverage ART which will require it to EQ the subs, will be to create a custom curve that follows the curve shown on the screen then it won't apply much EQ to it but will still factor it in for ART.

So it's gonna take a lot of experimenting to get it where I want it. My mains are actually are the speaker that can dig the deepest in my system because they are ported. They are dual 10's per speaker and are flat to 23Hz. Whereas my sealed DIY Dayton HO/HF are on bridged crowns but because they are sealed they do go as deep but summing them they get deep in aggregate.

I've used MultEQ-X right from the start with 4 subs and I always had problems with bass being cut 10 - 15dB as you can see in the red line in the graph and it took me more than an hour to get it to the green line. I've also never used DEQ. When the riser is done, I'll calibrate with MultEQ-X on preset 1.

I was thinking going MiniDSP with my previous Pioneer AVR but when I read the news about the new Denon series with 4 sub outs, I let go of the idea. When the riser is finished, I'll use 4x or 5x Crown XLS2502 in bridge mode straight from the Denon to feed each separate pair of subs.

 

[ban25]

I've used MultEQ-X right from the start with 4 subs and I always had problems with bass being cut 10 - 15dB as you can see in the red line in the graph and it took me more than an hour to get it to the green line. I've also never used DEQ. When the riser is done, I'll calibrate with MultEQ-X on preset 1.

I was thinking going MiniDSP with my previous Pioneer AVR but when I read the news about the new Denon series with 4 sub outs, I let go of the idea. When the riser is finished, I'll use 4x or 5x Crown XLS2502 in bridge mode straight from the Denon to feed each separate pair of subs.

Turning on DEQ will probably fix that bass cut for you. It's useful to measure with DEQ off and on to see what it's doing. One of the annoyances I find with Audyssey is that there are all sorts of poorly documented knobs and settings that have a big impact: e.g. Turn off MRC, turn on DEQ, enable Headroom Expansion.

 

[davidc]

Sort of an off-the-wall question here. I have a 5.0 system, using a Denon AVR-x4800h, and am anxiously awaiting Dirac ART. I can't add any more speakers for more surround due to the wife's acceptance factor and the layout of the living room. I can however, add some "hidden" speakers, like behind the TV, next to the couch, behind a chair. I'll probably add a sub this way for ART, even though I don't "need" one due to my large front L/R speakers.

Does anybody know if ART would allow hooking up extra speakers, but they only output the correction signals, and not be used for the "normal" sound? That way, I can better use ART, as I've heard the more speakers, the better.

 

[hemiutut]

Regarding what was discussed in previous pages about acoustic treatment, I recommend that you watch videos by Mr. Ron Sauro.
Surely more than one person will be pleasantly surprised.

Written with translator

Greetings

 

[davidc]

Sort of an off-the-wall question here. I have a 5.0 system, using a Denon AVR-x4800h, and am anxiously awaiting Dirac ART. I can't add any more speakers for more surround due to the wife's acceptance factor and the layout of the living room. I can however, add some "hidden" speakers, like behind the TV, next to the couch, behind a chair. I'll probably add a sub this way for ART, even though I don't "need" one due to my large front L/R speakers.

Does anybody know if ART would allow hooking up extra speakers, but they only output the correction signals, and not be used for the "normal" sound? That way, I can better use ART, as I've heard the more speakers, the better.

To answer my own question, I found out that you cannot use a single speaker as just a support speaker; it will be used as a normal speaker as well. If I understood correctly, I could add some wide or height surrounds in my current 5.0 system, and there would probably be very little sound as normal program material most of the time, but I could selectively use these speakers at a proper adjustable level. This was good news.

I also noticed while watching the YouTube video "Webinar with Dirac "The road to Active Room Treatment", which does a really good job of explaining all three systems. While it's long, it answers all your questions before you ask them. (link below)from 10 months ago that Mr. Erricsson from Dirac stated that bass control is not available "at this moment" for large full-range speakers. This implies they may offer it soon. I know they did have plans for it, as it was mentioned in a white paper of theirs and then removed when it was revised. After all, my large full-range main speakers are audio-wise just two subwoofers in the same box as my mids and highs. I just can't move them around.

 

[davidc]

A question for anybody using ART now:

Are the colors of the various curves, traces, sliders, etc, adjustable?

While watching the Webinar above, I looked at the speaker group level controls in the bottom left of the screen, and as a person with a color deficiency, I found it a little difficult to correlate the colors of the bars with the small dots on the right side of the screen they corresponded to.

About 8% of people are color deficient, and about 5-6% are routinely troubled by colors on displays like this.

If you are CD, I know right now you are saying, "Yeah, he's right".

As an eye doctor myself, I know it would be easy to rectify this even if you don't allow color adjustment. At least make the colors completely different. Just follow the ROY G. BIV name: Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, and Violet. Don't make the colors close on the frequency spectrum. And make the colors saturated.

OK, off my soapbox. Are the colors adjustable?

 

[GXAlan]

StormAudio ISP Evo immersive sound preamp/processor

One thing that interested me about the StormAudio ISP Evo is that, despite its obvious hi-fi function, it's more like a computer than a typical "prepro." While it does offer a few "legacy" analog inputs, it is for the most part all-digital, input to output, including network connections on both...

www.stereophile.com

@Kal Rubinson offers his subjective opinions on Dirac ART here.

Kal, I know the article is done, but one thing I was told is that if you use the “Spread” option for the graph for Dirac ART, it really highlights the strength over DLBC in terms of the predicted corrected results also having a much thinner spread. If you are allowed to post added screenshots here, that would be great (or even in the comment section of the Stereophile article).

 

[Dj7675]

answer my own question, I found out that you cannot use a single speaker as just a support speaker; it will be used as a normal speaker as well. If I understood correctly, I could add some wide or height surrounds in my current 5.0 system, and there would probably be very little sound as normal program material most of the time, but I could selectively use these speakers at a proper adjustable level. This was good news.

One thing to note about this is while you can’t add an a speaker that is only a support speaker, you can add more speakers to the speaker layout. For example, if you have a 5.0 system, you could add height speakers or front wide speakers to the layout…
Then, during playback, you can..
-Play a stereo signal natively for example and the content will play from your L/R speakers only, but all the other speakers would be used for cancellation
-Play a 5.1 signal natively (no upmixing) and content would be just played through the 5 speakers.
So in a sense you can add other speakers for cancellation only if the content is played natively and a lower channel count than the number of speakers you have.