Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review

[GXAlan]

Great measurements.

Has it ever been shown that listeners can hear a difference between this level of performance and, say, something like the Emotiva MC-1? There's no doubt that other pre-pros (like the Emotiva) measure worse. Has that difference in performance been shown to be audible? Just sayin'

The biggest differences aren’t SINAD but room correction/speaker EQ and uptime (reliability).

Before the era of advanced room correction, we still had enjoyable home theaters, so I would say that I would not fret if your budget for your AVP/AVR is lower.

That said, no one wants to spend more and get less, which is where the measurements come into play.

 

[Bigbwb]

I posted this in the Denon thread too….

Hey guys,
Thinking about simplifying my setup and looking for opinions.

Currently I have a parasound p7, parasound a21amp, and benchmark dac 3 for 2ch listening on my ascend RAAL ELX towers. I was curious if you all think the newer Denon 8500HA or marantz av10 would be an Improvement or not over the parasound and benchmark setup for strictly 2 ch listening? Oh, my current AV procesor is the Yamaha cx-a5200…and I do plan to keep the parasound amp regardless, but sell the Yamaha.

Any feedback would be great! The p7 is approaching like 14 years since it was developed as a side note.

 

[GXAlan]

I posted this in the Denon thread too….

Hey guys,
Thinking about simplifying my setup and looking for opinions.

Currently I have a parasound p7, parasound a21amp, and benchmark dac 3 for 2ch listening on my ascend RAAL ELX towers. I was curious if you all think the newer Denon 8500HA or marantz av10 would be an Improvement or not over the parasound and benchmark setup for strictly 2 ch listening? Oh, my current AV procesor is the Yamaha cx-a5200…and I do plan to keep the parasound amp regardless, but sell the Yamaha.

Any feedback would be great! The p7 is approaching like 14 years since it was developed as a side note.

This is the measured SINAD of my CX-A5100. The CX-A5200 had a weird ground loop according to Audioholics, but it did have higher end DACs.

While the Yamaha 4V SINAD is lousy and it already starts to stumble as soon as you hit 0.5V, note how it does at 0.5V. It’s just over 95 dB SINAD. Amir starts his measurement at 600mV but even this AV10 still hasn’t hit 95 dB mark yet.

Your Parasound A21 has 29 dB of gain.

So 0.5 V + 29 dB = 14.1V.
14.1^2/4 or 8 = 50W into 4 or 25W into 8 ohms

So now you need to plug your speaker efficiency and speaker distances to figure out how often you actually exceed that power level.

Peak SPL Calculator

—
So one extreme strategy is to use a UMIK-1/2 run YPAO for some of the FIR filters and then manually do your PEQ using the Yamaha to improve your sound.

Dirac is great. I went from Yamaha CX-A5100 to HTP-1. Even though SINAD is lower on the HTP-1, the end result is better on the HTP-1 due to Dirac and added control like BassEQ.

But I really do believe that the reason that Yamaha AV processors always sounded good despite poor measurements is that the Yamaha is really biased toward giving you optimal performance in the first 25W-50W essentially (the first 0.5V of output)

For what it’s worth, my 2-prong CX-A5100 generates a ground loop with 3-prong Meyer Sound Amie even when plugged into the same power center. Wiring the phono ground lug of the Yamaha to the ground lug of my power conditioner corrects the buzz by putting the ground of the active speakers at the same.

 

[Bigbwb]

Thanks for the technical response. My speakers are about 10ft away and 88db sensitivity. The Yamaha sounds good to me but I don’t bother with ypao, I just use REW and the umik for my subs. I’m just trying to determine if the 2ch performance of these newer high end receivers or processors compete with an older (p7) dedicated preamp.

 

[Newman]

Great measurements.

Has it ever been shown that listeners can hear a difference between this level of performance and, say, something like the Emotiva MC-1? There's no doubt that other pre-pros (like the Emotiva) measure worse. Has that difference in performance been shown to be audible? Just sayin'

That question has been tackled in other threads. The answer is 'no'. Or maybe for one second of audio in every 10,000. Or if you mismatch them to amps with wildly-wrong sensitivities. Or if you do a silly 'crank up volume to head-exploding levels during a quiet passage and listen for noise' test...which I don't count as actual usage.

The issue here is that these AVR/AVP units so often measure much worse than they need to, even at their price points. And it's just annoying.

The general buyer advice for AVR/AVP is to check for adequate SINAD (general inaudibility probably starts from 80-ish) then buy for the features you need. If you actually need features only found on the flagship, then it's for you. If not, get a unit that meets your needs at a price you can afford and stay away from this thread.

OTOH if you want to buy a flagship for flagship's sake and because you can, then your question doesn't matter.

 

[Mikycoud]

Does it have back light?

Yep, button on the right side. Nice soft "click" on actuation. Stays on for about 6 seconds.
LEDs very well integrated. No light leakage.

 

[simple6]

The biggest differences aren’t SINAD but room correction/speaker EQ and uptime (reliability).

Before the era of advanced room correction, we still had enjoyable home theaters, so I would say that I would not fret if your budget for your AVP/AVR is lower.

That said, no one wants to spend more and get less, which is where the measurements come into play.

Great comment. On the matter of room correction and reliability, I saw with interest the audioholics video by Gene and Matt on the room correction implementation in the AV10. Where they run both Audyssey X and Dirac Live in the same space. It is concerning that Dirac Live was not working properly on the unit yet. The correction file was uploaded OK, but the correction applied was not as expected. Matt said he reported this to Dirac, but it is nevertheless very concerning. And I'm not even sure that this does not affect other D+M units of the same period. Probably something for current owners to dig into more.

 

[Vacceo]

I didn't have reasons to doubt Gene's tests

I'll be anxiously waiting to see what Marantz will replace the AV7706 and AV8805A with.
They both got to be on the chopping block by now and a 11.2 channel processor would fit
my needs perfectly now and into any foreseeable future.

I personality hope they consider making a cheaper version of their CD players turning them into transports.

If you have the same DAC (or at least, competent enough) on the AVR/AVP, there is no point in adding another on the player.

BTW, I'm not by any means slamming Mc here. They've always built some great gear, at or close to SOTA, built like tanks, highly reliable, and attractive looking depending on your taste. Why shouldn't they take advantage of the demand for the old tube amps as long as they continue to build and design super new stuff.. It's not a rip-off of the public like cables and their claims. Wish I could afford a few pieces.

"Power amplifiers are the driving force behind any great home audio system. McIntosh amplifiers blend eye-catching aesthetics, power and sonic integrity in a way that has been capturing the imagination of music lovers and home theater enthusiasts for decades.

Whether your desires run towards vacuum tubes or solid state, monoblock, stereo or multi-channel configurations, McIntosh has your home audio or home theater amplifier solution."

The MX100 offers similar raw performance as the AV10 with a lot less functions for the same price.

I prefer the form factor of the Mac, to be honest. Too bad Mac hasn't updated their MX100 to take Dirac compatibility.

Dirac and a better HDMI board should not be too difficult to add to the MX100 while keeping the rest. Sure, you'd be paying the "Mac tax", but they can still put the performance on the table, price aside.

 

[peng]

Great comment. On the matter of room correction and reliability, I saw with interest the audioholics video by Gene and Matt on the room correction implementation in the AV10. Where they run both Audyssey X and Dirac Live in the same space. It is concerning that Dirac Live was not working properly on the unit yet. The correction file was uploaded OK, but the correction applied was not as expected. Matt said he reported this to Dirac, but it is nevertheless very concerning. And I'm not even sure that this does not affect other D+M units of the same period. Probably something for current owners to dig into more.

I watched that video and must have missed the part about Matt got about DL's correction not as expected so I might have re-watch it. Mind you, way back, he also said XT32 did not do well in its correction, something about making other mic positions worse, yet now he praised XT32 even though there has been no indication that XT32 (as it is still the same version afaik) has upgraded anything other than adding MultEQ X and Editor app that was by D+M, likely in collaboration with Audyssey.

So even if I re-watch that video I would take any subjective or semi subjective assessments on his take (with due respect) on Dirac Live with a grain of salt. It is hard to believe DL, and D+M would not have noticed something that is that concerning, they know full well of the high expectations from their customers who just spend additional hundreds of dollars adding DL. Yes, I am a skeptics on any sort of reviews of room correction systems, after trying different versions of Audyssey, Dirac Live and Anthem ARC Genesis, because in my experience, how the person use it will make a lot of differences if the user follows up using REW to see the results. Even the same person, using the same procedures, could/would yield different results for various reasons. To me, an objective reviewer such as Matt, should, hopefully had already investigated more, before concluding...

 

[Hart]

I would say my one nit pic is that I wish everyone would adapt the huge display like Arcam/Anthem. Something you can see from 10-15 feet away.

 

[Deckard71]

I think there is still some room for better performance. This is just the first step. I am hoping manufacturers of high-end AVP now get motivated to beat it and we see better performance. This AVP for example uses ESS9018. There are DAC ICs with better performance if implemented well.

Hi @amirm

Thanks for the great review and exhaustive measurements

Could you somehow test if when using an external dac connected to analog inputs in the AV10, the signal gets digitized or it has true analog bypass and internal DAC is skipped when using Pure Direct mode?

I see contradictions between what Marantz replied to me by email (DSP and processing is bypassed, but internal DAC cannot be bypassed) and what others say in other forums

Thanks

 

[simple6]

I watched that video and must have missed the part about Matt got about DL's correction not as expected so I might have re-watch it. Mind you, way back, he also said XT32 did not do well in its correction, something about making other mic positions worse, yet now he praised XT32 even though there has been no indication that XT32 (as it is still the same version afaik) has upgraded anything other than adding MultEQ X and Editor app that was by D+M, likely in collaboration with Audyssey.

So even if I re-watch that video I would take any subjective or semi subjective assessments on his take (with due respect) on Dirac Live with a grain of salt. It is hard to believe DL, and D+M would not have noticed something that is that concerning, they know full well of the high expectations from their customers who just spend additional hundreds of dollars adding DL. Yes, I am a skeptics on any sort of reviews of room correction systems, after trying different versions of Audyssey, Dirac Live and Anthem ARC Genesis, because in my experience, how the person use it will make a lot of differences if the user follows up using REW to see the results. Even the same person, using the same procedures, could/would yield different results for various reasons. To me, an objective reviewer such as Matt, should, hopefully had already investigated more, before concluding...

In the video Matt revisits his past experiences with Audyssey and also mentions that prior to testing DL on the AV10 he had done 2 DL calibrations for clients of his within the same week. I am not saying he cannot be wrong but learned the hard way not to trust D+M blindly when it comes to room correction implementations.

I own the 3600 and had to live for 3 years with an inherent bug that all 3600s have with their Audyssey implementation. The speaker distances are not calculated correctly cause a function converting time to distance is wrong and to this day, no one bothered correcting it with a firmware update (owners have to do the corrections themselves).

 

[amirm]

Hi @amirm

Thanks for the great review and exhaustive measurements

Could you somehow test if when using an external dac connected to analog inputs in the AV10, the signal gets digitized or it has true analog bypass and internal DAC is skipped when using Pure Direct mode?

Hi there. This thing weighs a ton and I have already brought it down to pack it. I really hate to lug it back upstrairs to test this. Didn't someone post that Gene at Audioholics had already tested this?

 

[Deckard71]

Ok no worries! Thanks anyway

 

[peng]

In the video Matt revisits his past experiences with Audyssey and also mentions that prior to testing DL on the AV10 he had done 2 DL calibrations for clients of his within the same week. I am not saying he cannot be wrong but learned the hard way not to trust D+M blindly when it comes to room correction implementations.

I own the 3600 and had to live for 3 years with an inherent bug that all 3600s have with their Audyssey implementation. The speaker distances are not calculated correctly cause a function converting time to distance is wrong and to this day, no one bothered correcting it with a firmware update (owners have to do the corrections themselves).

I don't disagree, but that so called time delay bug thing is way overrated by Audyssey. I don't blame them, as their newly launched $200 MultEQ-X has to compete with D+M's $20 Mult EQ app.

The time delay issue is a very minor issue, D+M didn't consider it a bug, they could have fixed it via a FW update quickly, if they gave it priority.

Edit: Apparently, the issue Matt/Gene identified was also related to some sort of delay issues, so I think it won't be long before DL fixed it via FW update.

I, and a lot of others who "suffered" from such a bug were happy enough with the results regardless; my REW graphs also did not show that it was such a big deal some forum members made it to be.

Again, I am not a non believer, just being a little skeptical, that's all. I wouldn't delay purchasing the DL versions because of Matt's comments but that's probably just me. I wonder if there are a lot of people regretting buying the licenses. Also, I would love to hear more from those who have tried and compared the performance of both, supported by messurements obviously.

Since Matt reported the issue, I trust DL would fix it soon enough, knowing full well D+M is potentially going to become one of their major customers.

 

[Thomas_A]

Hi @amirm

Thanks for the great review and exhaustive measurements

Could you somehow test if when using an external dac connected to analog inputs in the AV10, the signal gets digitized or it has true analog bypass and internal DAC is skipped when using Pure Direct mode?

I see contradictions between what Marantz replied to me by email (DSP and processing is bypassed, but internal DAC cannot be bypassed) and what others say in other forums

Thanks

It has been a question raised before and is still somewhat open. Seeing other Marantz like Amirs measurement of the NR1510, using analog in does not seem to get the poor DAC frequency response roll-off in the high end, meaning the ADC/DAC is not in the chain. Also, with pure direct you don't get processing/DSP but you can still use bass management (i.e. crossover settings for crossover works). I would guess the same with the AV10, but you never know until verified.

 

[amirm]

So exactly what test you want to see run? A frequency response test to see if there is sharp truncation indicating digitization?

 

[Thomas_A]

So exactly what test you want to see run? A frequency response test to see if there is sharp truncation indicating digitization?

You mean like your result below? I was as you surprised that the ADC/DAC seemed to be bypassed (in that case).

 

[peng]

Didn't someone post that Gene at Audioholics had already tested this?

Gene did it a while back:

Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor Bench Test Results

The Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor produced excellent bench test results. This $7K AVP has bass management features no other competitor has at this price. We thoroughly test to show you how it works.

www.audioholics.com

His analog input test look like the following:

 

[amirm]

That definitely shows ADC/DAC bypass.