Let's be a little nicer, especially to newcomers

[pseudoid]

Anecdotal? You decide.
The only remaining item needed was a subwoofer in the back-hatch area of my 2-door sports car.
Every bit of audio, in that car, was as hi-end as anything manufactured at the time (beyond competition-grade) that was available.
It was never designed and built with the "bust your ear-drums and drop all your fillings" intent or to win trophies.
With Sony 'employee purchase discount' (@50%), the electronics included a head-end unit, a separate DSP/EQ/SPDIF, amps, x-overs.... all in shiny copper enclosures.
When finished, I realized that I had ignored the need for a sub because I had not found any suitable sub with my limited room in the back of the 2-seats.

That is not the only option though.

TL&DR: You know what I did instead of a DIY sub, w/my own BS&T?
I only designed the sub (using CAD) w/the limitation of the car's and enclosure's volume+size, speaker parameters... as any engineer would do.
Then, I outsourced the manufacturing task of the (60-pound) sub to a friend who ... ummmm... enjoys woodworking... as any Project Manager would do.
Moral of the Story: Rome was NOT built in a day and certainly NOT by a single person!

 

[antcollinet]

So we can't tell you the truth?

Let's get the facts straight here: Your plan is to build an active bookshelf speaker, where basically every component is self-made: that includes a special high-rate ADC, companion DSP, digital motion feedback circuit, amps and let's not forget the physical design of the speaker itself. This is a truly massive undertaking, and some of these components alone would take years of knowledge and experience to pull off even half decently. So yes, if you come here with little knowledge, few requirements, and only half a plan, people will tell you that you are out of your depth and to maybe start with something simpler.

I spent 36 years in an electronic design department as engineer and then project manager.

I wouldn't dream of even tackling my own design of ADC, let alone the rest of it. Whole teams of talented engineers will take years to complete such a development. I could probably take on a speaker design, but that would still be a significant learning curve even starting where I am.

 

[Salt]

"I could probably take on a speaker design, but that would still be a significant learning curve even starting where I am."
The preference of this forum is to be open to all who are interested, and I appreciate. And none of us does know it all, but can learn from those who are perfect specialists within their professions.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

And none of us does know it all,

That reminds me of a comment made by the owner of a local construction company; "The old guys are the only ones who ask questions. The young guys know it all."

Jim

 

[kemmler3D]

Having worked in the industry, even building a speaker with off-the-shelf ADC / DAC modules and soldering them together is pushing the boundaries for most hobbyists, let alone building those circuits from scratch. Picking them out and programming them to work right is already as big a job as building a speaker.

If I wanted to build a speaker from scratch like this, I would at least allow myself to use finished goods to build it.

If you want to build the ADC / DAC and everything from scratch, yourself, I would say to commit to 5-10 years before you get to listen to music on the thing, and that's if everything goes right. I think maybe only Sony and Samsung among audio manufacturers would go to the extent of designing their own chips... you know, multi-billion dollar conglomerates.

That said, building an amp, crossover, and speaker from scratch is fine and normal. People do these things on DIYAudio all the time. It's not EASY but you can absolutely get satisfying results without a PhD. It's just that the digital stuff is a lot more complex than a typical home workbench job. I think even DACs have been done there, but it's definitely on another level.

Still, DIYAudio will condone that kind of thing and at least kind of point you in the right direction. ASR is more reasonable because we try to talk people out of it.

 

[pseudoid]

I could probably take on a speaker design, but that would still be a significant learning curve even starting where I am.

If you decide and when you get to the build-stage, let me know; I know a good woodworker!

If you do this, it could end up that both of you get sanctioned.

I apologize... I should have inserted, the tongue or the shades smilie, at the end of my statement about "....I'll berate, your berater..."
[insert peace-sign smilie, here]

 

[Mnyb]

Having worked in the industry, even building a speaker with off-the-shelf ADC / DAC modules and soldering them together is pushing the boundaries for most hobbyists, let alone building those circuits from scratch. Picking them out and programming them to work right is already as big a job as building a speaker.

If I wanted to build a speaker from scratch like this, I would at least allow myself to use finished goods to build it.

If you want to build the ADC / DAC and everything from scratch, yourself, I would say to commit to 5-10 years before you get to listen to music on the thing, and that's if everything goes right. I think maybe only Sony and Samsung among audio manufacturers would go to the extent of designing their own chips... you know, multi-billion dollar conglomerates.

That said, building an amp, crossover, and speaker from scratch is fine and normal. People do these things on DIYAudio all the time. It's not EASY but you can absolutely get satisfying results without a PhD. It's just that the digital stuff is a lot more complex than a typical home workbench job. I think even DACs have been done there, but it's definitely on another level.

Still, DIYAudio will condone that kind of thing and at least kind of point you in the right direction. ASR is more reasonable because we try to talk people out of it.

A good starting point for a digital active speaker project would ofcourse be a Hypex fusion plate amp . @BKr0n .
These have built in multiway crossover with amplifiers .

Then you have a running start any real or imagined defiency such a plate amp has simply pales in comparison to the real problem of integrating drivers and speaker boxes .

There are ofcourse other crossover solutions that could work equally fine but these are often in an external box

 

[CedarX]

I'm not a major contributor here, I also post on Head-Fi (different user name). When it comes to some audio topics (well... most, if I'm being honest), I am certainly a newbie / newcomer. For example, I don't know much about speakers, and I don't know "s..." about music production and what a studio engineer does.

Should ASR establish some "guidance" (rules? what to expect?) for newcomers to minimize these so-called "rude answer" cases? As an example, if my post is going to be 1-5 sentence long, and I have read less than 1-5 pages on the very topic (including zero research), I post on Head-Fi... But if I have already read 10-50 pages or more on that topic and I am still confused, or if I have some objective information to backup my post, I choose ASR...
So the "guidance" could be: "before posting anything... Research the topic a little bit... Read the equivalent of 100x (???) your post length on that very same topic... If not, don't be surprised if you get no answer... If you get what you perceive as a rude answer... Or if you get a "Like" acknowledging your (good!) post but telling you to do some research first.

This is not about being nicer to newcomers, but trying to avoid these situations.

 

[kemmler3D]

A good starting point for a digital active speaker project would ofcourse be a Hypex fusion plate amp . @BKr0n .
These have built in multiway crossover with amplifiers .

Then you have a running start any real or imagined defiency such a plate amp has simply pales in comparison to the real problem of integrating drivers and speaker boxes .

There are ofcourse other crossover solutions that could work equally fine but these are often in an external box

I totally agree. Hypex plate amps are probably the most performant plate amps sold to consumers. Most amps you can buy regardless of form factor have worse SINAD etc. If you just want to design an ADC / DAC section for the sense of accomplishment, that's fine - but there's no way in blazes you'd come up with something that beats the FA123 or whatever.

I'm not a major contributor here, I also post on Head-Fi (different user name). When it comes to some audio topics (well... most, if I'm being honest), I am certainly a newbie / newcomer. For example, I don't know much about speakers, and I don't know "s..." about music production and what a studio engineer does.

Should ASR establish some "guidance" (rules? what to expect?) for newcomers to minimize these so-called "rude answer" cases? As an example, if my post is going to be 1-5 sentence long, and I have read less than 1-5 pages on the very topic (including zero research), I post on Head-Fi... But if I have already read 10-50 pages or more on that topic and I am still confused, or if I have some objective information to backup my post, I choose ASR...
So the "guidance" could be: "before posting anything... Research the topic a little bit... Read the equivalent of 100x (???) your post length on that very same topic... If not, don't be surprised if you get no answer... If you get what you perceive as a rude answer... Or if you get a "Like" acknowledging your (good!) post but telling you to do some research first.

This is not about being nicer to newcomers, but trying to avoid these situations.

I agree with this. I've mentioned many times that ASR should have a FAQ that is required or strongly suggested reading for new users. 1) It would save members from having to answer basic, repetitive questions and 2) it would save new users from cranky members who are tired of the same repetitive questions. Overall it would improve the experience for everybody. IIRC I think Amir is in favor of the idea but wants to tackle it in a specific way which is why it doesn't exist yet.

 

[Doodski]

I agree with this. I've mentioned many times that ASR should have a FAQ that is required or strongly suggested reading for new users. 1) It would save members from having to answer basic, repetitive questions and 2) it would save new users from cranky members who are tired of the same repetitive questions. Overall it would improve the experience for everybody. IIRC I think Amir is in favor of the idea but wants to tackle it in a specific way which is why it doesn't exist yet.

I find the Linux web pages with the read me FAQ section to be very helpful for any technical subject matter study or questionnaire. The general layout of them is readable in that it is not a rules and regulations thing but it is a genuine request to put in some effort so that one is prepared to discuss with experts the situation.

 

[frabor]

Well said. Unfortunately, there are too many of those who really don’t have an in-depth knowledge of what they are talking about, they know the general basics, but they tend to see only black or white when a post does raise an issue with gray areas.

One of the best features that this site has is identifying audio luminaries, technical experts, manufacturers, etc.

I would counter your point saying that some audio luminaires, and not pointing to any member of the forum, have been pedling snake oil encased in a 10000 dollars machine aluminum enclosure for decades and being reverred even after measurements revealed that the products are not what they claim to be. We should appreciate all sensible comments and not take blindly any expert.

 

[AdamG]

I would counter your point saying that some audio luminaires, and not pointing to any member of the forum, have been pedling snake oil encased in a 10000 dollars machine aluminum enclosure for decades and being reverred even after measurements revealed that the products are not what they claim to be. We should appreciate all sensible comments and not take blindly any expert.

Please send us a Private message with additional details about your claim and we will investigate this further. Just dropping an open accusation is not going to fix anything. If your claim is true then I know Amir and Staff would very much want to address this.

 

[AdamG]

Our Members have no duty to be kind and gentle with every single person and/or post. Telling the poster the truth and facts is sometimes taken as abrasive or offensive, when it’s just the truth. Thier is a big difference between being direct and factual and being insulting.

New members come here every day to drop in get a few questions answered and they never come back. While the Core Members providing this free high quality content/tech support are here everyday trying to help others get this very complicated Science right. We don’t expect them to bow down and entertain your misunderstandings or misconceptions. If you’re wrong you will be told this pretty swiftly. There is a burden on the new comers to arrive with an open mind and be here under good faith intentions.

In this world we normally get back what we give. If you come here with an attitude or some type of grudge. Expect to be treated in kind to how you present yourself. On the other hand if you come here truly wishing to learn and to intelligently discuss Audio Science you will find a depth of knowledge and experience in Audio Science unmatched anywhere. None of this “human interaction” is complicated unless you intentionally make it so.

Trolls are quickly identified and removed from the collective. As a Community of Science and not feelings and opinions we get a lot of backlash for not blindly believing that there are things about Audio that can not be measured and accounted for by Science and Engineering.

All are welcome to join our community. Bring a positive attitude and you will be greeted in return with a positive Welcome.

 

[antcollinet]

Our Members have no duty to be kind and gentle with every single person and/or post. Telling the poster the truth and facts is sometimes taken as abrasive or offensive, when it’s just the truth. Thier is a big difference between being direct and factual and being insulting.

New members come here every day to drop in get a few questions answered and they never come back. While the Core Members providing this free high quality content/tech support are here everyday trying to help others get this very complicated Science right. We don’t expect them to bow down and entertain your misunderstandings or misconceptions. If you’re wrong you will be told this pretty swiftly. There is a burden on the new comers to arrive with an open mind and be here under good faith intentions.

In this world we normally get back what we give. If you come here with an attitude or some type of grudge. Expect to be treated in kind to how you present yourself. On the other hand if you come here truly wishing to learn and to intelligently discuss Audio Science you will find a depth of knowledge and experience in Audio Science unmatched anywhere. None of this “human interaction” is complicated unless you intentionally make it so.

Trolls are quickly identified and removed from the collective. As a Community of Science and not feelings and opinions we get a lot of backlash for not blindly believing that there are things about Audio that can not be measured and accounted for by Science and Engineering.

All are welcome to join our community. Bring a positive attitude and you will be greeted in return with a positive Welcome.

That should be part of the sign up form.

 

[BKr0n]

A good starting point for a digital active speaker project would ofcourse be a Hypex fusion plate amp . @BKr0n .
These have built in multiway crossover with amplifiers .

Then you have a running start any real or imagined defiency such a plate amp has simply pales in comparison to the real problem of integrating drivers and speaker boxes .

There are ofcourse other crossover solutions that could work equally fine but these are often in an external box

I have looked at hypex. There's a few companies out there that have built in DSP. However, like @kemmler3D said, it's the multi-billion dollar corporations that have the ability to do DSP in a truly meaningful way. Good example is genalac who have been doing this since the stoneages. Imo doing DSP and achieving the same noise figures that a high end amp would IS only doable by those large companies. I've kind of put digital off by the wayside because of this (DIYwise I mean).

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Our Members have no duty to be kind and gentle with every single person and/or post. Telling the poster the truth and facts is sometimes taken as abrasive or offensive, when it’s just the truth. Thier is a big difference between being direct and factual and being insulting.

New members come here every day to drop in get a few questions answered and they never come back. While the Core Members providing this free high quality content/tech support are here everyday trying to help others get this very complicated Science right. We don’t expect them to bow down and entertain your misunderstandings or misconceptions. If you’re wrong you will be told this pretty swiftly. There is a burden on the new comers to arrive with an open mind and be here under good faith intentions.

In this world we normally get back what we give. If you come here with an attitude or some type of grudge. Expect to be treated in kind to how you present yourself. On the other hand if you come here truly wishing to learn and to intelligently discuss Audio Science you will find a depth of knowledge and experience in Audio Science unmatched anywhere. None of this “human interaction” is complicated unless you intentionally make it so.

Trolls are quickly identified and removed from the collective. As a Community of Science and not feelings and opinions we get a lot of backlash for not blindly believing that there are things about Audio that can not be measured and accounted for by Science and Engineering.

All are welcome to join our community. Bring a positive attitude and you will be greeted in return with a positive Welcome.

As was mentioned previously, "Reality is a harsh mistress." Many scientists have found that out, including Madame Curie.

Jim

 

[kemmler3D]

like @kemmler3D said, it's the multi-billion dollar corporations that have the ability to do DSP in a truly meaningful way.

So, this not not quite what I was trying to get across, apologies if I was unclear.

When it comes to designing your own DAC or ADC chips (the most ground-up you can get) the number of companies that do that AND put out speakers or headphones is very limited. It's only the absolute biggest players that could or would consider doing that.

Everyone else does the sensible thing and builds in chips by AKM or ESS or one of the other DAC chip makers. Almost all of the DAC (in the sense of a consumer product) brands do this too. Even Topping is not designing its own chips, just the circuits that go around the chips.

Imo doing DSP and achieving the same noise figures that a high end amp would IS only doable by those large companies.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with this. The Hypex amps will do fairly sophisticated DSP with 90-100dB SINAD all day. That's audibly transparent for pretty much any tweeter you'd want to connect to it, i.e. you're not going to hear hiss.

I would also say that meaningful DSP (in the sense of using software to tweak the sound) is not out of reach for anybody.

For example, this little guy will give you DSP capabilities comparable to almost anything on the market: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805766033082.html

To give some idea, you may only need 6 or 7 FIRs (maybe only 3 or 4) and a few bands of PEQ to build something as sophisticated as the KEF LS60. (aside from the feedback circuit - that's pretty advanced for the home builder.) Sure, this is not built into every plate amp, but it's far from being limited to massive conglomerates, either.

Even something as sophisticated as Dirac ART is not out of reach for a serious hobbyist if you know what you're doing and you're willing to do a ton of work. Speaker DSP on the level of D&D 8C - likewise, the principles involved are not out of reach for a serious hobbyist, what puts it out of reach is doing enough measuring and tweaking to get good results. You will need to work on it full-time for weeks or months. Most hobbyists can't treat speaker building as a full-time job. But at the end of the day, it mostly boils down to tweaking delay, phase, frequency response and amplitude. Any DSP unit you might want to use will give you enough control in that regard.

A famous chef will probably use essentially the same salt, flour and butter as a home cook. Results depend 99.5% on knowing what you're doing with the ingredients, not growing your own wheat or milking your own cows.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[JP]

…and they are equally as objective.

Some are, but very many aren’t.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Our Members have no duty to be kind and gentle with every single person and/or post. Telling the poster the truth and facts is sometimes taken as abrasive or offensive, when it’s just the truth. Thier is a big difference between being direct and factual and being insulting.

New members come here every day to drop in get a few questions answered and they never come back. While the Core Members providing this free high quality content/tech support are here everyday trying to help others get this very complicated Science right. We don’t expect them to bow down and entertain your misunderstandings or misconceptions. If you’re wrong you will be told this pretty swiftly. There is a burden on the new comers to arrive with an open mind and be here under good faith intentions.

In this world we normally get back what we give. If you come here with an attitude or some type of grudge. Expect to be treated in kind to how you present yourself. On the other hand if you come here truly wishing to learn and to intelligently discuss Audio Science you will find a depth of knowledge and experience in Audio Science unmatched anywhere. None of this “human interaction” is complicated unless you intentionally make it so.

Trolls are quickly identified and removed from the collective. As a Community of Science and not feelings and opinions we get a lot of backlash for not blindly believing that there are things about Audio that can not be measured and accounted for by Science and Engineering.

All are welcome to join our community. Bring a positive attitude and you will be greeted in return with a positive Welcome.

Thank you. Well put.

 

[frabor]

Please send us a Private message with additional details about your claim and we will investigate this further. Just dropping an open accusation is not going to fix anything. If your claim is true then I know Amir and Staff would very much want to address this

Please send us a Private message with additional details about your claim and we will investigate this further. Just dropping an open accusation is not going to fix anything. If your claim is true then I know Amir and Staff would very much want to address this.

I have not explained myself correctly as I was not implying or stating that ANY particular member has done anything wrong. I have no complaints or accusiation againsts any member of the forum.

Apologies if k sounded incorrect, that was neither my intention or intent.

My point is that in the Audio community there are many self appointed gurus that make all kind of outlandish claims and snake oil. Selling expensive stuff does not make anyone a real expert, sometimes gear is great and worth it, sometimes is just a nice wrapper in a mediocre apparatus. Sensible opinions should be respected, specially if they are backed by data