Let's be a little nicer, especially to newcomers

[JSmith]

But just today some have posted their concern that ASR may be gaining some growing reputation for being, too often, mean-spirited.

I don't see where this comes from... to me it's almost all other audio forums that are mean spirited. Especially those that get paid to allow and support unscrupulous vendors to prey on their members.


JSmith

 

[ahofer]

I don't see where this comes from... to me it's almost all other audio forums that are mean spirited. Especially those that get paid to allow and support unscrupulous vendors to prey on their members.


JSmith

I don't frequent a lot of other forums, but Audiogon was certainly a cesspool of angry bloviators every time I looked at it.

I know where the recent comment came from, but I think it was deleted or moved to the 'desperate dealers' thread by the moderators. Someone posted information (basically press) about a new March Audio product and a long-time member jumped all over him.

 

[RayDunzl]

I din do nuffin.

 

[kemmler3D]

Oh yes, this - one of my pet peeves. And very often I could be helpful, but don't bother due to the effort of having to look up a long list of items in an OP's OP. Some people don't even say what the kit is, Just a long list of item numbers with no idea if they are Dacs, Amps, Speakers, Turntables, or even Reel to reel decks etc.

Look, if you don't know what a "300" is then I don't have time to explain it to you.

 

[pseudoid]

I din do nuffin.

I really don't like criticizing anything or anyone but the color of your sunglasses does not complement your hairdo.

 

[RayDunzl]

I really don't like criticizing anything or anyone but the color of your sunglasses does not complement your hairdo.

You're seeing colors?

 

[Blumlein 88]

You're seeing colors?

ECP. Extra Color Perception.

 

[Anthony LoFi]

You're seeing colors?

Hi Ray
Are you related to my cousin Edna ?
She is colourful.

 

[Jim Taylor]

ECP. Extra Color Perception.

Human tetrachromacy? https://www.allaboutvision.com/eye-care/eye-anatomy/tetrachromacy/

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Human tetrachromacy? https://www.allaboutvision.com/eye-care/eye-anatomy/tetrachromacy/

No wonder I can't slip by wife. Now what is her hearing mutation?

 

[Old_School_Brad]

I don't frequent a lot of other forums, but Audiogon was certainly a cesspool of angry bloviators every time I looked at it.

I know where the recent comment came from, but I think it was deleted or moved to the 'desperate dealers' thread by the moderators. Someone posted information (basically press) about a new March Audio product and a long-time member jumped all over him.

I have a dormant lurker account on Audiokarma to access the excellent vintage repair thread images in full resolution. From what I've observed, anyone who dares to persistently question the claims of the usual "golden ears" doesn't last long -they’re quickly shown the door. So the mods must be subjective as well.

 

[IPunchCholla]

No wonder I can't slip by wife. Now what is her hearing mutation?

Estrogen.

 

[Thomas Savage]

ASR is a place of learning, sharing , scrutiny, challenge and progression. It's also kinda fun , I certainly enjoy myself and have a laugh.

When I started looking at audio based forums there were non that respected audio engineering, knowledge and science that didn't also come with a big helping of unpleasantness. Leaving very little room for sharing and discovering knowledge. Just a kind of bigotry, a reverse snobbery that was purely self serving and full of self congratulation. They gave our side of the street a bad name and did nothing for the industry or wider hifi audience.

It was Amirms , mine and a few others hope we could create something different. I can tell you it was a nightmare, we got kicked from all sides but there was a steadfast belief , in time progress was made .

Mistakes were also made , but the ambition was and always has been one of servitude. To indivisuals and the industry, a industry that had largely lost its way and wasn't serving the best interests of consumers or audio science and engineering.

We bend over backwards to make room for people , to help , to listen and to at times literally hand hold through complex subjects . We love doing this ( well not me , I'm still fairly clueless and only here for the money ) , it's our shared mission and it's the price of admission!

The forum is free , the reviews are free but there's a kind of payment, share our values and put the best face on this side of the street, the objective , knowledge respecting side as possible.

If folks come here to purely make their own fun at the expense of our members , we have a duty to expell them . Come with a open mind , accept challenge while respecting actual audio science and our arms are open . However those that come for sport , that don't want to listen and challenge themselves will after some opportunity to alter course be ejected .

That's the contract we have with our members , you help make ASR the most friendly space and best face of audio science online and we , management will take care of the odd bad actor .

It requires all of us , together, and I personally really appreciate the effort and patience so many of our regular contributing member make on behalf of us all .

Thanks guys , have fun and hopefully learn something along the way .

 

[antcollinet]

ASR is a place of learning, sharing , scrutiny, challenge and progression. It's also kinda fun...

There needs to be more than one like button for this sort of post.

 

[Keith_W]

When I started looking at audio based forums there were non that respected audio engineering, knowledge and science that didn't also come with a big helping of unpleasantness. Leaving very little room for sharing and discovering knowledge. Just a kind of bigotry, a reverse snobbery that was purely self serving and full of self congratulation. They gave our side of the street a bad name and did nothing for the industry or wider hifi audience.

I agree. I have been in this hobby for 30 years, and most of it was wasted as a subjectivist. I convinced myself to hear differences when there were none. I can attest to the power of group suggestion - when there are 10 people in the room who all claim to hear a difference when a cable is swapped, you hear the difference too. And it's not just peer pressure, I genuinely honest-to-God thought I could hear a difference.

Objectivists used to sneer at us - in fact objectivists still sneer at subjectivists. I didn't like them, like you say, I thought it was a kind of reverse snobbery. There are more differences, subjectivists usually prize aesthetics and build quality, and many assembled systems in beautiful listening rooms with gorgeous looking components. How could a dingy looking room with pro audio monitors possibly sound better?

I was somewhat disturbed that "my side" were into weird voodoo tuning gadgets that couldn't possibly do anything, but I consoled myself that I wasn't like them. I never believed in Tice clocks, audiophile fuses, or any of the fringe stuff. But I definitely believed I could hear a difference between DAC's and CD players.

One by one I jettisoned those beliefs. I always found it difficult to hear differences between DAC's, and all it took was to look at Amir's measurements to convince me that my experience tied in with the measured performance. I owned a HQPlayer license - this meant that blind tests were easy since it did not involve changing components. I could ask my wife to change the sample rate for me while I listened, and I could not hear a difference.

Nowadays my negative experience with objectivists from my early days still colours my approach. I resolved to be NOT like them. I don't call anybody an "audiophool". On subjectivist forums, I leave them alone to discuss their ridiculous tweaks and only help them if they ask a measurement related question. They know I secretly disagree with everything they say but I keep my mouth shut to keep the peace. I think the way to persuade them is to show them how this approach can help them, rather than sneer at them. Sneering achieves nothing and only alienates people.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

Estrogen.

That would be the cause not just of her hearing change, but of her entire transformation -much like the belief that you should be able to grasp her thoughts without her needing to speak them aloud and explain.

But I’m getting off track a bit...

 

[kemmler3D]

I think the way to persuade them is to show them how this approach can help them, rather than sneer at them. Sneering achieves nothing and only alienates people.

Quoted for truth.

On my own journey, I was actually brought up in an objectivist audiophile household. My dad has a decently serious system (including R2R machine) and has since I was a baby. EQ and everything since the '80s. (Not PEQ but a good graphic stereo EQ in a home system in 1989 has to count for something.)

My dad was, as soon as I was able to understand, down on subjectivist stuff. He told me about the coat hanger test I think before I turned 12. I "knew" all amps sound the same before I knew what THD meant. "

Despite or because of this I also had an interest in audio for its own sake. I played with DJ turntables and played with DAWs in my teens, and took an audio technology minor in college. So by the time I was in my mid-20s, I knew quite a bit about how digital audio and synthesis worked.

But later, even when I got a job in the industry, I still didn't know all that much about how speakers or headphones worked. I still made space for some mystique about good speakers and even amps. For a while I even did all my work by ear (which went unquestioned by my co workers!)

To be honest, it was only after landing here at ASR that I got some quantitative support for my already-extant notions about amps, and it really helped me understand the importance of off-axis speaker measurements (i.e. about 2/3 of the review). Whatever small thoughts I had about sound quality being an artistic quality of speakers disappeared fast. I was basically already on board with ASR orthodoxy, but I didn't understand why, until I read a good handful of Amir's reviews.

I'm fortunate that I never fell in with the subjectivist troupe. I came in with above-average knowledge due to good fortune on my part. Not everyone has a proto-objectivist dad who calls out nonsense years before it's cool. But ASR has still advanced my knowledge quite a bit. We have a nice little gang of folks who truly know their stuff here. Following along and doing my part for basis questions has been a really valuable experience.

 

[nanook]

Several factors at play with Vinyl - for starters:

• Vinyl is more fun and engaging to play because it's a big physical disc. This might influence how closely you listen and what you hear.
• Vinyl tends to have more THD than other formats. That can actually sound subjectively good in moderate doses.
• Vinyl masters sometimes have more dynamic range than digital masters, due to (IMO) poor decisions on the part of studios/labels. Which can also sound subjectively better.

The limitations of the vinyl medium had an impact on the mix - not for nothing were there "maxi singles" that allowed more freedom in terms of bass levels.

I recently came across a video about some nerds experts remastering some classical piece at the Emil Berliner Studios.
(Don't get me wrong - I really appreciate the efforts, both the idealistic and the technical. The video absolutely worth watching.)
The experts at Emil Studios Berlin have remixed the original recordings (8-track tape) and cut them again on a lathe for vinyl records. It was all a fascinating technique, which is also "illustrative" compared to a current digital workflow. I think this is also where the fascination for the "vinyl" medium comes from.

 

[nanook]

I just started here a bit ago. I wanted to build a set of speakers as a neat little project to work on. I figured I don't have all the answers, and in some cases, don't even know the right questions to ask. I joined ASR because on other forums I noticed that a lot of analysis was more anecdotal instead of based on evidence. I have learned so much in the past 5 months. Everything from filter design, to analog vs digital, and even some enclosure design (I also didn't know what SINAD was before I joined). However, my biggest gripe has always been the condescension. Look... I will be the first to raise my hand and say "no, I don't know everything." I picked this hobby up because I love audio and thought maybe with a little education I would be able to make some of the things that sound really good instead of wringing my wallet out for them. But time and time again, I run into the same old situation. People who do know better and, instead of providing mentorship and learning, only provide further consternation and frustration. This isn't easy. Like... at all. It's hard. There is so much that goes into designing even just a set of studio monitors. I had no idea that there was this much depth. It doesn't help at all when I ask a question to tell me "I'm out of my depth" or "how do you not know this" or something else along those lines. It only makes it tougher, and even worse, makes the hobby far less attractive than when I first started. I don't know how. Fine. Doesn't give you free reign to berate me and tell me I don't know what I'm doing because I'm new.

I came across this thread just yesterday.
@BKr0n: In case you are still involved in some kind of DIY-speaker project, I'd recommend the software LspCAD.
The software allows to build passive and active speakers with the filters being passive, generic, OpAmp based. The individual chassis are connected to individual amplifier channels and the software calculates level and phase that would be present on the chassis terminals with the crossover in place (be it active or passive (!)).
The inputs needed to design the filters are:
- impedance vs. frequency of the individual chassis measured in the final cabinett (incl. damping material and port)
- frequency response incl. phase (on axis) of the individual chassis in an anechoic environment (merging of near-field responses with windowed far field response is a valid way to go)
- I don't even think LspCAD needs the TS parameters of the chassis, but I'm not sure since we had them measured anyways to dimension volume and port

When back then in summer 2013 our acoustic designer left the company, he gave us (mainly electronic designers) a crash-course on his last evening. Together we developed the passive crossover for a 2-way loudspeaker (a private project of one of my colleagues) and after about 5 hours the result was pretty nice (see attachment, vertical grid should be 5dB/Div with the numbers being 10dB apart; the room was treated, but far from being anechoic)).
Listening to a pair of these speakers (in emulation mode) was perfectly enjoyable - even for people developing professional speakers.
The actual passive crossover was made months later and the result matched the frequency response measured in emulation mode within ca. 1dB.

There was (and I hope there still is) a commercial version and a free version. The restriction of the free version was that you cannot save projects and there's no emulation mode.

I do have a pair of 2-way speakers with a flawed crossover design (baffle step not accounted for; different phase response of the two chassis in the crossover region), but I stick with them because my dad did the woodwork for the beautiful cabinets. I do have a calibrated microphone, REW would perfectly do the job (we used CLIO back then), I still have a copy of LspCAD and last-not-least I have a former colleague and friend who clearly is a luminary in all audio and audio measurement related things. He's the one who got me involved in the ASR.

I have not yet taken the trouble to develop a new crossover for this pair of speakers - that would be an extensive project, including initial (anechoic) measurements in the garden.