• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Let's be a little nicer, especially to newcomers

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,221
Likes
232,562
Location
Seattle Area
Hello you all. While I consider our forum to be more friendly than many, it seems that we are quite harsh on new members who post things that go against our consensus view. There is no reason to pound on people hard when they say this and that sounds good to them. Let them have some time here to learn what we are about and what the data is.

By the same token, please dial down the complaining. :) Heaven knows every time I do a review, a good percentage is complaining about this and that. When a device performs extremely well, it is time to celebrate, not to think of half a dozen reasons why that is a bad thing. Dealing with all the negative commentary takes away some of the fun of reviewing such gear.

To be sure, you can correct people who try to prove science and engineering is wrong. Or issues you find in my testing or expressing a general opinion. Just be mindful of the negative consequences of it. I know I personally let go of many things that I don't agree with it.

I tell you these things because I see senior members wanting to have their account deleted at times due to the high tensions they see here on so many topics. Let's just be more relaxed about this. OK?
 

Timcognito

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 28, 2021
Messages
3,187
Likes
12,037
Location
NorCal
Yes I am surprised at some of the harsh responses to those who say they are newbys. There are many here that have formal training and some industry people that are truly helpful. Like others from the pre-digital age back when my ears where pretty good and I drank the the snakeoil, I would have killed to get to what I've learned at ASR. That said old beliefs die hard and some new ones that are reinforced by those who's sites are supported by industry play heavily on the uninitiated. So some cation needs to be taken by those hobbyists new and old that are just coming here and know that many here have fervent love for the hobby and some have made careers out of it. So if you don't have the data to back up what you are saying just read and ask questions that result in factual responses, then you will learn. I will say that most posters here are respectful and helpful even in debate and some people are just cantankerous learned or not. That is the way of the internet.
 

Prana Ferox

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
897
Likes
1,841
Location
NoVA, USA
ASR when they see a new poster

19239723_10154970531263369_1196873769_n.gif
 

NiagaraPete

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 23, 2021
Messages
2,179
Likes
1,941
Location
Canada
Perhaps a short set of large print guidelines for new members when they register.

I was completely unprepared for my experience here and I own a xenforo forum.

In my opinion things like post hijacking and think before you speak could be hi lighted.
 

TimF

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 15, 2019
Messages
487
Likes
861
Indeed, I return to this website because much of it is fun for me. Can science be fun? This is not medical science and the results are not life and death, hardly critical; yet of value like the value received in appreciating wondrous works of art. What an era we live in. Before audio recording how many people world wide had ever heard all Beethoven symphonies, or even one Bach cantata. And to think, before audio recording no one had heard the French heavy metal band Gojira. Now we can all access heavy metal to our hearts content.
 

Timcognito

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 28, 2021
Messages
3,187
Likes
12,037
Location
NorCal
Now we can all access heavy metal to our hearts content.
Yes and artful humor and nuanced sarcasm are sometimes appreciated at ASR. I know I do. :facepalm:
 
Last edited:

antcollinet

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
7,244
Likes
12,019
Location
UK/Cheshire
There is a horrible trend recently to accuse new members of being a troll when they state their (perfectly reasonable given what they'll have been reading all over the web for most of the time they've been interested in audio) opinion on how something sounds.

This seems particularly the case when someone is not writing in perfect English.

1 - Please lets give new members the benefit of the doubt until they *actually* start trolling. Espousing incorrect opinions or information is not that. At least not until they start to aggressively double down when nudged in a more ... sciency:cool:... direction.

2 - Lets recognise that for many, English is not their first language. They may be using online translation tools. Bad English does not a troll make.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,221
Likes
232,562
Location
Seattle Area
There is a horrible trend recently to accuse new members of being a troll when they state their (perfectly reasonable given what they'll have been reading all over the web for most of the time they've been interested in audio) opinion on how something sounds.
Indeed. We have definitely gone too far on this. I get called a troll on other forums so know how that feels!
 

Travis

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2018
Messages
455
Likes
551
I tell you these things because I see senior members wanting to have their account deleted at times due to the high tensions they see here on so many topics. Let's just be more relaxed about this. OK?
This is disconcerting. Very sorry this is the case, it should never happen.

I’m “new” here, and haven’t experienced anything I would consider to be offensive, harsh, or otherwise negative. But I don’t think I posted anything the first year, just read and studied as much as I could before posting in order to get a flavor for the Forum and understand it’s culture.

Just a couple of observations from an “outsiders” viewpoint.

I have seen numerous instances of senior members responding to a post by someone by engaging in Socratic method that doesn’t create tension or bad feelings. A quick example. Someone posts that they purchased product X and proceeds to describe the change in sound to their system with a list of adjectives like transparent, fast bass, wet transients, etc. You all know the type of post I’m talking about. I have seen many senior members respond to such a post by referencing threads on placebo effect, sighted comparisons or similar. They may even say they have no doubt the OP is hearing what they heard, and they are glad it was a major improvement for them, but have they considered that what they are hearing may be due to something else besides X. They go to great lengths to introduce themTo the “Science” associated with the Forum. That approach, as far as I have seen, wins many converts.

I have also seen others jump down the throat of a poster of such a hypothetical thread, in a harsh and condescending manner essentially saying they don’t know what they are talking about, there subjective opinion is of no merit or value, essentially they are unwelcome here.

You have to really understand and know the science and engineering to do the Former, not so much the latter.

I wonder what would happen the next time someone posted something of that nature and nobody responded? Or simply responded with a link to a thread that addresses why their comments might be of limited or no value here.

If you subscribe to professional journals in acoustics, audio engineering (AES), electrical engineering you constantly see responses to previously published papers stating some disagreement with the conclusions, along with the authors response. It’s always professional, and usually backed by references or other data.

Lastly, one thing I have observed is that some here feel the need to save people from themselves. It’s a constant undercurrent of saving those that buy high dollar cables, $10,000 fuses (is anyone aware of someone actually buying a $10,000 fuse?) and a lot of other things. Or “audiophiles” who make choices based on how it sounds. They don’t need saving. Science, engineering, measurements, double blind testing in audio have been around in journals, audio magazines, now audio forums and everything else since at least the 1950s. People who come here, and stay here, (“US”) don’t need saving. Why there is a constant desire to save “them” is beyond me along with the need to draw lines between us and them.

Unfortunately, when it comes to Forums, audio or otherwise, there will be those who lack finesse and diplomacy. The culture of the Forum, whether it is moderation, other members interceding in threads to soften things up as requested in this thread, etc. will set the culture of the Forum as a whole.

The “Ignore” button can be your friend here.

.
 

rgpit

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 29, 2019
Messages
196
Likes
507
Location
Colorado Springs, CO
Hello you all. While I consider our forum to be more friendly than many, it seems that we are quite harsh on new members who post things that go against our consensus view. There is no reason to pound on people hard when they say this and that sounds good to them. Let them have some time here to learn what we are about and what the data is.

By the same token, please dial down the complaining. :) Heaven knows every time I do a review, a good percentage is complaining about this and that. When a device performs extremely well, it is time to celebrate, not to think of half a dozen reasons why that is a bad thing. Dealing with all the negative commentary takes away some of the fun of reviewing such gear.

To be sure, you can correct people who try to prove science and engineering is wrong. Or issues you find in my testing or expressing a general opinion. Just be mindful of the negative consequences of it. I know I personally let go of many things that I don't agree with it.

I tell you these things because I see senior members wanting to have their account deleted at times due to the high tensions they see here on so many topics. Let's just be more relaxed about this. OK?
I wish I could hit the like button 25 more times for this one!
 

sam_adams

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 24, 2019
Messages
963
Likes
2,328
We should give all new members a warm, Hank Scorpio welcome . . .

HankScorpioWelcomeToASR-Med.jpg


Seriously though, as any site like ASR becomes more popular there will be those who will come looking for quick answers to issues that they aren't completely familiar with and don't really know how to format their questions in a way that will get them to a proper answer. That's part of the 'Google' mindset of seeking quick answers to complex problems. That just doesn't happen in the real world and often it takes considerable time to understand the science or engineering to reach a basic level of competence or understanding.

Then, of course, there will be those that cannot be 'convinced'—by any means—that their knowledge of a subject or their applied knowledge is, at best, faulty. There has always been a "culture of ignorance" as Asimov said, that has been pervasive in society. Most recently we have seen the opposition to scientific consensus become more pervasive as people refused to believe emerging knowledge that challenges what they think they know. A recently published study, Knowledge Overconfidence Is Associated With Anti-Consensus Views On Controversial Scientific Issues, covers this very well.

There are many here that have years of experience with the subjects discussed here and are most willing to share. Often times I find little bits of information from users that I can use to learn more about certain aspects of our shared interests—whether it's a neat device, a piece of software or a paper that I haven't yet read. Sharing of information like this is what makes ASR fun to be a part of.
 
Last edited:

Mr. Widget

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2022
Messages
1,133
Likes
1,630
Location
SF Bay Area
Hello you all. While I consider our forum to be more friendly than many, it seems that we are quite harsh on new members who post things that go against our consensus view. There is no reason to pound on people hard when they say this and that sounds good to them. Let them have some time here to learn what we are about and what the data is.
Thank you!

After only really discovering ASR last fall and meeting many talented and interesting people here and learning quite a bit, I have recently stepped away because I became tired of the negativity that pops up in the threads about the idiocy of some aspects of our hobby.

I think that ASR has a very relevant and important message to share with audiophiles. (defined as people interested in the various aspects of recorded sound and not the pejorative meaning) Unfortunately ASR's message gets buried under an avalanche of polite to downright impolite posts and name calling towards anyone who doesn't yet understand what we can actually hear and measure.

The fact is that most audiophiles are not stupid or fools. They simply have not had the proper exposure to useful measurements and controlled listening tests.
 

Anthony LoFi

Active Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
124
Likes
274
I can only concur with the above sentiments. I read more than I post of course but when I have, there seems to be a section of forum members, the "self righteous-all knowing" that have to find some aspect of a sentence to firmly denounce the author of any form of IQ.
I always let it go through to the keeper, except when the poster refers to country of origin specifics.
I have called out this type of generalization and have privately messaged the poster with an explanation of possible interpretation of those from all nations where English is not their first language. This takes it off the thread page and is less confrontational to the general reader who just wants to enjoy the information.
Its hard to expect the forum moderators to monitor a 24hour platform but they do a good job where it gets out of hand.
In every section of the community that has a common purpose, the likelihood of the overbearing I know everything personality will always exist.
The general group will always tolerate this personality type and we just get on with the job.
 

Keith_W

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 26, 2016
Messages
2,377
Likes
5,450
Location
Melbourne, Australia
I agree with your motivation Amir and I applaud it. But unless you and the moderators start doing something, like going into those threads and telling some members to shut up "or else", this kind of behaviour is going to continue.

Having said that, I think ASR is improving when it comes to friendliness. Just a year ago, any thread which had "turntable" or "valve amp" on the title would ignite a round of bashing which would rapidly drag the thread off topic. I don't see this happening any more, so either those guys have worn themselves out or they have gotten the message from our moderators.
 

Descartes

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 27, 2020
Messages
2,083
Likes
1,053
I am so thankful for ASR and Erin Audio corner, I have learned so much about audio measurements and interpreting the scientific data explaining the limitations of amplifiers, speakers and AVR.
In addition, I also value subjective opinions backed up by data and understand that it is only one opinion!
Finally it is really nice to see so many mumbo-jumbo, audio file, and pseudoscience debunked by Amirm!
 
D

Deleted member 48726

Guest
Hello you all. While I consider our forum to be more friendly than many, it seems that we are quite harsh on new members who post things that go against our consensus view. There is no reason to pound on people hard when they say this and that sounds good to them. Let them have some time here to learn what we are about and what the data is.

By the same token, please dial down the complaining. :) Heaven knows every time I do a review, a good percentage is complaining about this and that. When a device performs extremely well, it is time to celebrate, not to think of half a dozen reasons why that is a bad thing. Dealing with all the negative commentary takes away some of the fun of reviewing such gear.

To be sure, you can correct people who try to prove science and engineering is wrong. Or issues you find in my testing or expressing a general opinion. Just be mindful of the negative consequences of it. I know I personally let go of many things that I don't agree with it.

I tell you these things because I see senior members wanting to have their account deleted at times due to the high tensions they see here on so many topics. Let's just be more relaxed about this. OK?
I agree with you fully.

BUT I see just as many if not more of those harsh comments from senior members than newcomers.
 

Travis

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2018
Messages
455
Likes
551
I can only concur with the above sentiments. I read more than I post of course but when I have, there seems to be a section of forum members, the "self righteous-all knowing" that have to find some aspect of a sentence to firmly denounce the author of any form of IQ.
Well said. Unfortunately, there are too many of those who really don’t have an in-depth knowledge of what they are talking about, they know the general basics, but they tend to see only black or white when a post does raise an issue with gray areas.

One of the best features that this site has is identifying audio luminaries, technical experts, manufacturers, etc.
 
Top Bottom