Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[pseudoid]

I see something, that to me is a bit more than annoying.

If I see a reviewed product that is (imo) a poor performer and/or high priced and/or features features that I will never have the use for, should I first consult you to NOT get you ("a bit more than") annoyed, before stating my displeasure w/it in a POF market?

 

[dtaylo1066]

DEI's Sound United organization is an audio electronics division which includes Denon, Marantz, Boston Acoustics, and HEOS by Denon (under D+M Group); Polk Audio; and Definitive Technology, Bowers & Wilkins.

Yes, the supply chain issues and the AKM fire sucked, but a company of this size, scale and design capability could have -- and should have -- done a better job on this product's DAC.

Are most buyers and users of this product likely to hear or realize a difference or dificiency? Probably not. But from a value proposition for a unit of this cost one deserves better DAC performance than what can be bought in a separate DAC for $75.

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

It's a middling product with a middling price and outstanding features that make it seem like a bargain to many.

People have been obsessing over DAC performance for at least the last 30 years. Nothing has changed. There's a s-ton more going on than the DAC. Just implementing these designs is amazing to me - it would take me 10 years to learn to design a product as sophisticated as this.

Nobody is stopping anybody from buying a buggy "specialty" product that measures better (maybe) and costs 2-10x as much.

 

[Sieniek]

I see something, that to me is a bit more than annoying.

As soon as something is tested and has less than very good measurements, many all just pile on, having NO intention of buying said item, nor having ever heard the unit.
In fact I did not see Amir even mention having played music or sound on this receiver.

This objectivism thing has gone out of control.
I feel that many in here have literally no idea if something will sound good, great or mediocre, but merely parrot what Amir posts and what his measurements reveal.

Why it's annoying to you ? Isn't that normal and natural that people's have their choice of buying or not buying a device which in their opinion is measuring good enough or not ?
Isn't that company (in this case Denon) problem that their device is measuring below standards while still "maybe" transparent enough to do not hear lesser sound quality music when compared with something with much better SINAD ?
Or maybe you are working for Denon and do not like when the truth - bad measurements of the device (especially when we think about the retail price of the unit and that their older products measured better) and spreading that information hurting the overall sale and demand for these units ?

No hard feelings, I simply would like to know what can be annoying if on this site every product tested by @amirm is having real life measurements/reviews which are so helpful for potential customers like me or anyone else who thought about buying it but in the end changed his mind because of lazy or bad engineering ? Denon staff.

We are all free peoples and we can decide whatever we want so no need to be annoyed by this. Maybe it will motivate these companies to grab their asses and start working harder on the products about which for now it looks like they only thinking about them like about potential profit and business instead of thinking like about an stellar performance product made with passion which if happened would obviously sell like a hot cakes being in the end a system seller with out of stock info almost everywhere.

For me they are lazy and looking only about making a profit with the smallest possible effort when developing such a unit.

 

[jam]

Very sad and disappointing overall performance considering that Denon has been on a path of incremental improvements over last few years with some of the better AVR/AVP measurements in the DAC sections and pre-outs. Great and important review Amir since a lot of people out there were waiting for this one to be used for its pre-outs and support of Dirac.

 

[Brian6751]

As already said, better SINAD on a product shows that the designer put some real effort to optimize the build, took their time with the layout, placements of components, power supply, cables etc. Audible or not, who would you prefer, or even support for their efforts? And not to forget that this is a forum for people that like innovations and excellency on audio gears, why should we be content with such performance. In any other hobby's forums (cars, motorbikes, projectors etc), you would get the same reaction, nobody would be happy if a new car model had worse performance and was more expensive that the previous model, even if you'd never tell the difference in practice.

If I have a choice, I'd never support a product with less than 96 SINAD, I don't care if it's audible or not, should be doable even for AVR I'd like to think.

What? That is nonsense. Having a SINAD of under 96 doesn't mean the designer didn't do all those things.

"put some real effort to optimize the build, took their time with the layout, placements of components, power supply, cables etc"

So with your own logic, if a designer does all those things, the SINAD will magically be 96db+ even if it's not planned to be and if it's not 96db+ they didn't do those things? This makes no sense.

I feel like I'm sitting at the engineer lunch table....

 

[GaryH]

Are most any buyers and users of this product likely going to hear or realize a difference or dificiency? Probably not.

But from a value proposition for a unit of this cost one deserves better DAC performance than what can be bought in a separate DAC for $75.

'Better DAC performance' offers nothing of value over another device if it's not audible, which in this case it isn't. The only thing you'd gain is bragging rights for a higher SINAD number on the spec sheet.

 

[Adis]

I was just looking at the distortion measurements of my speakers at 93dB SPL. They range from 0.5% to 2% in the critical frequencies for hearing (peaks at over 100% distortion at low frequencies - lol.) Even in the critical midrange frequencies, this is 100 to 400 times as distorted as the DAC in the X3800H. They say you can't compare these measurements directly, but I'd like to know how I would "hear" something 200x smaller than the typical distortion produced by a loudspeaker? I just have to shrug.

Demagoguery 101.

 

[Adis]

Exactly. In practical circumstances -87 dB DAC/amp THD is provably inaudible, with just a bit of math. In order to be audible and result in the JND of 0.1 dB (the minimum 'just noticeable difference' the human ear can detect) over the loudspeaker's distortion, this -87 dB THD would have to be combined with a speaker THD less than -70 dB (worst-case, in-phase, combining to -69.9 dB, see the calculator at the bottom here). That's 0.03%. I don't think any speakers consumers will use will have THD this low. And of course this is not even considering absolute distortion hearing thresholds and the psychoacoustics of masking which will make the actual audible transparency threshold even more lenient. Insisting that vanishingly low audio electronics THD is needed for transparency is not only absurd, it's demonstrably false in practice, because the transducer is invariably by far the weakest link distortion-wise in the audio reproduction chain.

Ever heard of a atom? You can't see it. Can't hear it.
Yet, we have nuclear power plants. And weapons.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

It’s not just about DAC SINAD performance . It’s also noise, linearity, and harmonic distortions. It seems like they could not design a perfect audio section, so they put lipstick on the pig in the form of Fancy GUI and promise of DIRAC. It looks like that old scam where the person said give me one dollar to tell you how I got to be a millionaire. In this case Denon is collecting money upfront to pay for Dirac later!

We are not saying it’s a trashy unit, but we are saying enough is enough. We are not paying this much so SU can get fatter. They could have lowered the price to $1200 (or something less than 3700), and we wouldn’t have this discussion.

However SU has proven to care less about customers over and over again. They were sneaky about the DAC change in X700 as well. And then the HDMI issue. They could have issued a recall instead of sending that embarrassing top box. The list goes on. Don’t let me start on Marantz problems.

 

[Rottmannash]

I'm interested to hear what Gene at Audioholics has to say about these measurements. He's quite the D & M fanboy.

 

[Brian6751]

This thread is so full of illogical assumptions and false claims that my head hurts.

Most likely, Denon designed a device to have all its features and have a dac section that is audibley transparent. They accomplished that.

What benefit to the consumer would having a higher SINAD bring? Zero.

You guys try to tie this to bad quality but that is a false equivalency.

What is this, The Cult of SINAD?

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

I hate to say this, but you're missing the point and using terms that you don't understand. I'd bet you an enormous sum of money that you couldn't tell the difference between the 3700 & 3800. I mean like life-savings about of money. You should consider relaxing and not taking these arguments personally.

And you should stop repeating yourself. You said your piece once, why are you posting the same thing 100x? If someone is interested in your preaching, they join your church. At least I’m not making money out of YouTube videos and recommendation to click here so I get a percentage of sale. Yes, I am taking about your followers that “like” your every post on here who is having a church now?

 

[Rottmannash]

@CyrusTheGreat_600BC Perhaps you should not be so caustic- others might consider your arguments in a different light.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Peace

 

[amper42]

I'm interested to hear what Gene at Audioholics has to say about these measurements. He's quite the D & M fanboy.

Unfortunately, when you make money advertising the very products you write about it becomes difficult to write much negative without financial repercussions. I'm sure they believe they offer full disclosure but when you have to think of the financial impact before disclosing negative opinions it's a conflict that can easily impact full disclosure.

 

[Narnian]

I picked up a 3800 this morning and set it up. So far nobody has been injured or died.

Sounds nice to me, but then again, I have some high level hearing loss.

Hopefully in about a week I will be getting a DAC in that tested here at 120db SINAD and will see if I can hear any difference in stereo.

 

[Dj7675]

It's a middling product with a middling price and outstanding features that make it seem like a bargain to many.

I don't thing this product (3xxxx series) is positioned as a middling product @ $1699. And a middling price? Fully loaded with Dirac(2023) + DLBC(2024) we are at around $2500. It deserved a better DAC chip to start with. In all of this "it doesn't matter" discussion... remember that dirac uses 10dB of headroom for EQ purposes. My understanding is that means you will need to turn up the volume 10dB more to get to the same volume level with EQ raising noise and distortion etc .
I know several have requested to do a bench test with EQ enabled and I believe @amirm may not see it as valuable in it for many reasons, but it would be interesting to have it done one time and learn what happens when EQ is engaged to noise/distortion etc.
@$2500 there is value here for sure due to it getting dirac and most likely dlbc with 4 subs for sure. Monoprice HTP1 is @ $4k I believe with no amps. Denon should certainly have done better IMO on the 3xxx series as they have done in the past.

 

[Mnyb]

If the full Dirac implementation appear in 2024 just wait until then and see what’s on the market ?

Maybe D&M has a new product or someone else has it . I don’t see the piont in upgrading any AVR products right now especially if you already have a very current design like previous gen D&M products ?

If you don’t have any AVR at all and needs something rigth now then you need to consider this product and compare to other products and what they offer today .

Wonder why D&M felt the need to refresh their product line just now ? Very short product cycles in the AVR business?
Could they just not continued the last gen and spent more time in R&D until 2024 .

 

[GXAlan]

The way I look at it, there are three critical discussion points.

1) If you believe there is a difference in sound between the X3700H and X8500H

2) under 1v, the X3800H isn’t bad. If you have the money, the desire to buy new, and you need an AVR, the Denon will give you reliable HDMI and eARC/CEC. This is great for home environments listening below reference level.

3) Given that low gain Class D amps or reference level may push you above 1V nominal, and given the asking price of the X3800H, you are better off voting with your wallet and buying used X3700h line AND likely to be similar in price with a much lower cost of entry. When DIRAC is out next year, you can buy a refurb X3800H.