KEF LS60 Wireless Just Announced

[this is me]

To be fair, my iPhone 4 which is over 10 years still works. You can make calls just fine. However, the battery don't last very long. I think phones got a bad reputable of their longevity because of the battery limitation and softwares. The hardware still function just fine.

I like the idea of the all in one box. I had the LS50 wireless II for a couple weeks and loved the fact that I can just plug them in the wall anywhere in the house and play whatever I want on my phone through streaming services. It would be great if we can bypass the internal electronic and provide our own.

 

[goat76]

I don't think KEF will support this speaker longer than say 8-10 years, I hope they will but I have my doubts.

 

[JulianFP]

Interesting discussion re the potential pitfalls of all-in-one actives. For background my last 2 speakers have been one-box actives, Meridian DSP5000 where the left speaker failed after just over 24 years of flawless service (well done Meridian) at which point I went with a pair of KEF LS50W (which I still have) in August 2019. I was considering getting 1 or 2 KC62 subwoofers for my LS50Ws but now I think that my next speakers are very likely to be LS60s. My collection of random thoughts on the matter is as follows...

1 - If some part of the electronics fails it's almost certainly more of a hassle boxing up and shipping a big floor mounted speaker back to the manufacturer vs shipping back a failed DAC, amplifier, streamer or whatever. Using the LS60 as an example you're talking about some serious amplification if your stand-alone amp that you need to ship back to the manufacturer for repair is bigger and heavier than an LS60! Also for people without massive amounts of storage space in their home they can almost certainly repurpose some other box and some good padding and packaging to ship back a DAC or even a power amp whereas if you haven't stored your original LS60 packaging somewhere you're probably going to have to go out and buy a suitable box and packing stuff to ship it safely.

2 - Hassle aside though, at least in the UK there are quite a few places that offer extended warranty for no additional cost. For instance when I bought my LS50W I got them with a 6 year guarantee via a reputable dealer (Richer Sounds) so if mine were to go wrong they are under guarantee until mid August 2025.

3 - I remember a while back when I was planning to upgrade my TV and was following the TV market quite closely one year Samsung made a big deal of launching its top-of-the-range TVs with a modular architecture such that the electronics was on a user-accessible circuit board accessed by unscrewing a panel on the back of a PC, similar to how you can upgrade memory or drive/SSD capacity on a laptop. The idea was that Samsung could sell upgraded electronics as a stand-alone part so that your TV wouldn't be orphaned every generation. I'm not following TV technology that closely any more since I feel no need to upgrade right now but I get the impression that concept never got traction and in the TV world maybe that's not surprising since it seems to offer little in an industry where if anything the panel technology improves more significantly than the electronics from year to year so what is the point of being able to slot fancy new electronics into a TV with an out of date panel in it? If however some of these active manufacturers embraced this concept such that a warranty repair on an LS60 (for instance) involved KEF sending out a packing box with instructions on how to remove the electronics module that had been designed from the outset to be user swappable maybe that could counteract the increased inconvenience factor I mentioned in 1 above. Apple has launched self service repair for iPhones so it's not exactly an idea that is unheard of.

Personally while I do appreciate the points being made by people who are concerned about reliability issues, it's not going to stop me going with the LS60 assuming I like the sound although I will again be sure to buy via a dealer that includes an at-least-5-year extended warranty as part of the deal. Additionally, for something big and expensive like my TV or LS60 rather than throw out the boxes I fold them down so that I can squash them flat and store them in a reasonably space efficient manner; if they are needed again liberal use of packing tape to hold them back in their original 3D form should do the trick - or at least I hope so, I've never actually had to ship anything big back for repair so the box reconstruction bit of my strategy is as yet untested.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Soon you'll be rebooting your speakers..

.............and your automobiles.

 

[this is me]

Interesting discussion re the potential pitfalls of all-in-one actives. For background my last 2 speakers have been one-box actives, Meridian DSP5000 where the left speaker failed after just over 24 years of flawless service (well done Meridian) at which point I went with a pair of KEF LS50W (which I still have) in August 2019. I was considering getting 1 or 2 KC62 subwoofers for my LS50Ws but now I think that my next speakers are very likely to be LS60s. My collection of random thoughts on the matter is as follows...

1 - If some part of the electronics fails it's almost certainly more of a hassle boxing up and shipping a big floor mounted speaker back to the manufacturer vs shipping back a failed DAC, amplifier, streamer or whatever. Using the LS60 as an example you're talking about some serious amplification if your stand-alone amp that you need to ship back to the manufacturer for repair is bigger and heavier than an LS60! Also for people without massive amounts of storage space in their home they can almost certainly repurpose some other box and some good padding and packaging to ship back a DAC or even a power amp whereas if you haven't stored your original LS60 packaging somewhere you're probably going to have to go out and buy a suitable box and packing stuff to ship it safely.

2 - Hassle aside though, at least in the UK there are quite a few places that offer extended warranty for no additional cost. For instance when I bought my LS50W I got them with a 6 year guarantee via a reputable dealer (Richer Sounds) so if mine were to go wrong they are under guarantee until mid August 2025.

3 - I remember a while back when I was planning to upgrade my TV and was following the TV market quite closely one year Samsung made a big deal of launching its top-of-the-range TVs with a modular architecture such that the electronics was on a user-accessible circuit board accessed by unscrewing a panel on the back of a PC, similar to how you can upgrade memory or drive/SSD capacity on a laptop. The idea was that Samsung could sell upgraded electronics as a stand-alone part so that your TV wouldn't be orphaned every generation. I'm not following TV technology that closely any more since I feel no need to upgrade right now but I get the impression that concept never got traction and in the TV world maybe that's not surprising since it seems to offer little in an industry where if anything the panel technology improves more significantly than the electronics from year to year so what is the point of being able to slot fancy new electronics into a TV with an out of date panel in it? If however some of these active manufacturers embraced this concept such that a warranty repair on an LS60 (for instance) involved KEF sending out a packing box with instructions on how to remove the electronics module that had been designed from the outset to be user swappable maybe that could counteract the increased inconvenience factor I mentioned in 1 above. Apple has launched self service repair for iPhones so it's not exactly an idea that is unheard of.

Personally while I do appreciate the points being made by people who are concerned about reliability issues, it's not going to stop me going with the LS60 assuming I like the sound although I will again be sure to buy via a dealer that includes an at-least-5-year extended warranty as part of the deal. Additionally, for something big and expensive like my TV or LS60 rather than throw out the boxes I fold them down so that I can squash them flat and store them in a reasonably space efficient manner; if they are needed again liberal use of packing tape to hold them back in their original 3D form should do the trick - or at least I hope so, I've never actually had to ship anything big back for repair so the box reconstruction bit of my strategy is as yet untested.

What you do with all the foams? The box can be flatten but you still have to deal with the foams.

 

[Mnyb]

Interesting discussion re the potential pitfalls of all-in-one actives. For background my last 2 speakers have been one-box actives, Meridian DSP5000 where the left speaker failed after just over 24 years of flawless service (well done Meridian) at which point I went with a pair of KEF LS50W (which I still have) in August 2019. I was considering getting 1 or 2 KC62 subwoofers for my LS50Ws but now I think that my next speakers are very likely to be LS60s. My collection of random thoughts on the matter is as follows...

1 - If some part of the electronics fails it's almost certainly more of a hassle boxing up and shipping a big floor mounted speaker back to the manufacturer vs shipping back a failed DAC, amplifier, streamer or whatever. Using the LS60 as an example you're talking about some serious amplification if your stand-alone amp that you need to ship back to the manufacturer for repair is bigger and heavier than an LS60! Also for people without massive amounts of storage space in their home they can almost certainly repurpose some other box and some good padding and packaging to ship back a DAC or even a power amp whereas if you haven't stored your original LS60 packaging somewhere you're probably going to have to go out and buy a suitable box and packing stuff to ship it safely.

2 - Hassle aside though, at least in the UK there are quite a few places that offer extended warranty for no additional cost. For instance when I bought my LS50W I got them with a 6 year guarantee via a reputable dealer (Richer Sounds) so if mine were to go wrong they are under guarantee until mid August 2025.

3 - I remember a while back when I was planning to upgrade my TV and was following the TV market quite closely one year Samsung made a big deal of launching its top-of-the-range TVs with a modular architecture such that the electronics was on a user-accessible circuit board accessed by unscrewing a panel on the back of a PC, similar to how you can upgrade memory or drive/SSD capacity on a laptop. The idea was that Samsung could sell upgraded electronics as a stand-alone part so that your TV wouldn't be orphaned every generation. I'm not following TV technology that closely any more since I feel no need to upgrade right now but I get the impression that concept never got traction and in the TV world maybe that's not surprising since it seems to offer little in an industry where if anything the panel technology improves more significantly than the electronics from year to year so what is the point of being able to slot fancy new electronics into a TV with an out of date panel in it? If however some of these active manufacturers embraced this concept such that a warranty repair on an LS60 (for instance) involved KEF sending out a packing box with instructions on how to remove the electronics module that had been designed from the outset to be user swappable maybe that could counteract the increased inconvenience factor I mentioned in 1 above. Apple has launched self service repair for iPhones so it's not exactly an idea that is unheard of.

Personally while I do appreciate the points being made by people who are concerned about reliability issues, it's not going to stop me going with the LS60 assuming I like the sound although I will again be sure to buy via a dealer that includes an at-least-5-year extended warranty as part of the deal. Additionally, for something big and expensive like my TV or LS60 rather than throw out the boxes I fold them down so that I can squash them flat and store them in a reasonably space efficient manner; if they are needed again liberal use of packing tape to hold them back in their original 3D form should do the trick - or at least I hope so, I've never actually had to ship anything big back for repair so the box reconstruction bit of my strategy is as yet untested.

I have DSP5200 a DSP5200C and DSP3100 . Speakers holding up nicely.

What’s always been a bit flakey is the G98DH DVDA player ( now dead again ) and the G68J processor and the speakerlink box had some psu failures , I’ve ripped of some connectors on the hdmi processor , with Meridian’s original to tight fitting digital cables .

The control unit G68J is not supported/serviced anymore . So funny enough this system with internally amped and DSP’ed speakers will fail due an external unit .

There are current products Meridian that are compatible, but for the money I migth as well get a pair of LS60 and a mini DSP and still have money left.
And it will very likely sound better.

 

[Danaxus]

I understand the benefits of integrating the amps into the speaker, but is there a good reason they won't let you bypass the internal DAC? Amps and speakers have matured and don't change all that much with time, but DACs are not only the cheapest component, but also the one that is going to change the most over time (Bluetooth, HDMI, fancy new futuristic digital input that hasn't been invented yet, etc), and is also the device that lets you interface with current and future technologies.

The Genelecs allow (and some even require), you to connect a DAC, right? So why don't the LS60s without throwing it into an ADC and then back through their own DAC? Is it because the DSP is a requirement to get them to sound good?

 

[lherrm]

I understand the benefits of integrating the amps into the speaker, but is there a good reason they won't let you bypass the internal DAC? Amps and speakers have matured and don't change all that much with time, but DACs are not only the cheapest component, but also the one that is going to change the most over time (Bluetooth, HDMI, fancy new futuristic digital input that hasn't been invented yet, etc), and is also the device that lets you interface with current and future technologies.

The Genelecs allow (and some even require), you to connect a DAC, right? So why don't the LS60s without throwing it into an ADC and then back through their own DAC? Is it because the DSP is a requirement to get them to sound good?

The DSP is a part of the design. Example for Genelec 8351B :

Edit : completed by @Sancus below. It's in the digital domain from Room Acoustic EQ to each band EQ.
Also, Bluetooth, HDMI etc don't have much to do with the role of the DAC.
You can have a "hub" (audio interface) with multiple inputs outputting to the single active speaker digital input.

 

[Sancus]

I understand the benefits of integrating the amps into the speaker, but is there a good reason they won't let you bypass the internal DAC? Amps and speakers have matured and don't change all that much with time, but DACs are not only the cheapest component, but also the one that is going to change the most over time (Bluetooth, HDMI, fancy new futuristic digital input that hasn't been invented yet, etc), and is also the device that lets you interface with current and future technologies.

The Genelecs allow (and some even require), you to connect a DAC, right? So why don't the LS60s without throwing it into an ADC and then back through their own DAC? Is it because the DSP is a requirement to get them to sound good?

The Genelecs that have a DAC are the ones that allow digital input, and they don't allow you to bypass it.

The problem is that any speaker like that or the LS60 are doing all their EQ and crossovers in the digital domain. So bypassing the DAC is physically impossible. There is no single pathway from the DAC to the rest of the speaker for you to bypass to in the first place.

Digital active speakers don't really have anything in common with consumer DAC-AMP separate setups, the whole idea of "bypassing the DAC" is just weird audiophile myth stuff. There would be absolutely no benefit to doing so. There is also no audible reduction in sound quality from a single repeated ADC -> DAC cycle so avoiding it is not worth doing for any manufacturer.

Also, keep in mind that DACs in general don't really matter for speaker use, because speaker amplifiers are almost always the limiting factor in terms of noise and distortion. There's basically no point to a 120db SINAD DAC if your amp is 80-100. It is a bit different for headphones as the other components in the chain(amp and headphone drivers) tend to be better.

 

[JulianFP]

What you do with all the foams? The box can be flatten but you still have to deal with the foams.

No magic there I'm afraid, I just store them separately. It's still less space in total than the huge 3D volume that the boxes as delivered would occupy. I have an ottoman bed, the ones where the whole mattress and base hinges up with the assistance of gas cylinders to give a very big storage space underneath. That's where I keep the big flattened-out boxes together with their foam bits. So far it's been big enough to store the boxes I've wanted to keep.

 

[MattHooper]

No magic there I'm afraid, I just store them separately. It's still less space in total than the huge 3D volume that the boxes as delivered would occupy. I have an ottoman bed, the ones where the whole mattress and base hinges up with the assistance of gas cylinders to give a very big storage space underneath. That's where I keep the big flattened-out boxes together with their foam bits. So far it's been big enough to store the boxes I've wanted to keep.

I finally sold most of my spare audio gear and boy were the boxes ever taking up a lot of room for many years (in our basement crawlspace).
Very glad to have all that out of there, but at the same time I'm glad I'd kept the boxes because it made re-sale much easier.

 

[TSB]

Does it need to be inside the cabinet to do that?

Inside the box means you don't have another box with cables. This is a lifestyle (LS) product after all.

And what would be the advantage of having the "custom" specific-for-the-speaker electronics outside the speaker, if it's not repairable inside the speaker cabinet it's not repairable outside the box either. And since limiting and DSP are all handled in your electronics, just slapping on another generic amp is not an option, you'd have to re-design a lot stuff, probably including crossover.

 

[Absolute]

Inside the box means you don't have another box with cables. This is a lifestyle (LS) product after all.

And what would be the advantage of having the "custom" specific-for-the-speaker electronics outside the speaker, if it's not repairable inside the speaker cabinet it's not repairable outside the box either. And since limiting and DSP are all handled in your electronics, just slapping on another generic amp is not an option, you'd have to re-design a lot stuff, probably including crossover.

I beg to differ. The problem is not unrepairable electronics inside the speaker cabinet, the problem is sending the speaker cabinet across the world to fix it when something breaks. If the electronics are outside you can send that - or just replace it with something similar. All you need is the dsp and gain settings.
This works perfectly for JBL, why not for everyone else?

 

[TSB]

I beg to differ. The problem is not unrepairable electronics inside the speaker cabinet, the problem is sending the speaker cabinet across the world to fix it when something breaks.

That's not the problem that was being discussed in this thread. But yeah, if it breaks you (or the dealer) remove the electronics and send it off for repair. Unless the device is poorly designed this isn't a problem. The real drawback is that if the parts (or support) is no longer there, you can't just replace it with a generic amplifier, like you do with passive speakers.

If the electronics are outside you can send that - or just replace it with something similar. All you need is the dsp and gain settings.

I think you're underestimating the scope and specificity of the electronics in high-end active speakers. You can't just replace them with "something similar". The electronics has been fine-tuned for the specific speakers. DSP has very specific features and settings, possibly coupled to software that allows you to control it. Limiting and crossover are often handled by the same electronics. Replacing this stuff by "something similar" is the same as re-designing a lot of the speaker. Active speakers are not just passive speakers with the amp put inside it!

This works perfectly for JBL, why not for everyone else?

I'm not sure what you mean, but JBL active speakers like the 4305P are no different from the KEF speakers that are the subject of this topic.

 

[Absolute]

That's not the problem that was being discussed in this thread. But yeah, if it breaks you (or the dealer) remove the electronics and send it off for repair. Unless the device is poorly designed this isn't a problem. The real drawback is that if the parts (or support) is no longer there, you can't just replace it with a generic amplifier, like you do with passive speakers.

I think you're underestimating the scope and specificity of the electronics in high-end active speakers. You can't just replace them with "something similar". The electronics has been fine-tuned for the specific speakers. DSP has very specific features and settings, possibly coupled to software that allows you to control it. Limiting and crossover are often handled by the same electronics. Replacing this stuff by "something similar" is the same as re-designing a lot of the speaker. Active speakers are not just passive speakers with the amp put inside it!

I'm not sure what you mean, but JBL active speakers like the 4305P are no different from the KEF speakers that are the subject of this topic.

I mean that JBL provides outboard electronics for many of their active speakers, both in the form of various dsp/amplifiers with presets for many speakers (must have been 20 different speaker presets in my previous Crown amplifier), stand-alone dsp's in the form of BSS or combined dsp/pre like rebranded Trinnov/Storm/AVM or whatever with locked presets for their speakers.

Dsp isn't rocket science, it is simple. Measure the output of what comes out of the dsp (or amp after dsp) and replicate the transfer function in another dsp. No magic involved.

I've used many different dsp's and amps with my JBL M2's, no problem.
If something dies I'll have it replaced within a couple of days.
With the Kii Threes that have 6 amplifiers and dsp channels inside a closed box it took the better part of a year from I sent it to I got them returned when they died.

Like I said earlier, if the company can't be bothered to provide you with the necessary tools to maintain the product after their electronics die or they decide to close shop or no longer support their creation, don't buy their product.

The JBL solution of cooperating with various companies that make dsp-products is a good way to provide their customers with tools to support their products indefinitely, regardless of what JBL itself does.
Would be cheaper to just post settings online and let the customers figure it out themselves, but hey.

 

[TSB]

I mean that JBL provides outboard electronics for many of their active speakers, both in the form of various dsp/amplifiers with presets for many speakers (must have been 20 different speaker presets in my previous Crown amplifier), stand-alone dsp's in the form of BSS or combined dsp/pre like rebranded Trinnov/Storm/AVM or whatever with locked presets for their speakers.

Those actives have internal electronics too. Those handle limiting and crossover, possibly more (for example, temperature-based limiting, try that with your outboard DSP!). If it breaks and they can't repair it you're still screwed. The reason for outboard DSP is totally different in pro audio BTW. Consumer actives from JBL also have everything internally.

Dsp isn't rocket science, it is simple. Measure the output of what comes out of the dsp (or amp after dsp) and replicate the transfer function in another dsp. No magic involved.

Yeah, if you have 12 drivers you just need to provide 12 channels of input, and trust users to do proper limiting to protect all the drivers. What you end up with will be something like what Linkwitz did. It's great for the few people who don't mind 12 channels of amplification and a forest a of speaker cables in their living room. It's obvious to me why KEF didn't go for this option with their slim lifestyle speaker.

I've used many different dsp's and amps with my JBL M2's, no problem.

Those are passives with internal crossover.

If something dies I'll have it replaced within a couple of days.
With the Kii Threes that have 6 amplifiers and dsp channels inside a closed box it took the better part of a year from I sent it to I got them returned when they died.

Yes, that sucks, but manufacturers are going down this road because it offers distinct advantages, that's all I'm saying. There is a trade-off.

 

[sifi36]

Wouldn’t what Kef are doing with “smart distortion control” be impossible with external DSP?

 

[TSB]

Wouldn’t what Kef are doing with “smart distortion control” be impossible with external DSP?

Indeed.

 

[Absolute]

Those actives have internal electronics too. Those handle limiting and crossover, possibly more (for example, temperature-based limiting, try that with your outboard DSP!).

M2 has no internal electronics. There's an l-pad filter to reduce tweeter hiss with included first order high-pass centered at 1 khz to protect tweeter in case of mixing high and low output from the amplifier.

The limiter is handled in the dsp before the amplifier.

If it breaks and they can't repair it you're still screwed. The reason for outboard DSP is totally different in pro audio BTW. Consumer actives from JBL also have everything internally

Talking about the l-pad here? I don't use it because it's easy to implement a first order high pass electronically instead. In either case the schematics for this l-pad is readily available if you need to make one.

Yeah, if you have 12 drivers you just need to provide 12 channels of input, and trust users to do proper limiting to protect all the drivers. What you end up with will be something like what Linkwitz did. It's great for the few people who don't mind 12 channels of amplification and a forest a of speaker cables in their living room. It's obvious to me why KEF didn't go for this option with their slim lifestyle speaker.

If one cable carries 2 or 12 ends to connect on the back of a speaker doesn't matter.

Those are passives with internal crossover.

Which speakers? M2? Wrong.

Yes, that sucks, but manufacturers are going down this road because it offers distinct advantages, that's all I'm saying. There is a trade-off.

Thermal compression sensors aside I can't see any advantage aside from hiding amplifiers.

Wouldn’t what Kef are doing with “smart distortion control” be impossible with external DSP?

If it's a voltage limitation thing to avoid over-excursion, it doesn't matter where the dsp is. If it's a dynamic temperature thing like the Kii Threes, probably.

You would need to check with the experts on this.

 

[nothingman]

Indeed.

Right. People have lost the plot on this whole thing. It’s a deeply integrated package. It does not look like your separates all crammed into the chassis. Don’t like it? Fine, but stop pretending like it would somehow be better if you could tweak it or repair it with off-the-shelf parts. Nothing about this product is for tinkerers.