Would ZeroSurge or SurgeX worth it and would make sound worse?

[GXAlan]

found this on a forum where the owener of zerosurge responded


Sorry Skid00 but it is not similar to our design. They still use MOVs. You can see the "MOV" printed on the board on their website "deep dive" into their technology - furmanpower.com/series-multi-stage-protection-smp/ You can also see the iron core inductor which saturates.

It is the inductor that helps with the dI/dt reduction that is critical in protecting today's switch mode power supplies. If it saturates quickly, then it can't do any work.

When one looks around for claims about technology, you will see a ton of conflicting information. One that seemed to pop up when I poked around today was that Zero Surge sued Furman. That never happened. Surgex may have sued them but I can say 100% that Zero Surge did not.

Sorry to dump on you like this. I don't jump on forums much so when I get a chance to spread some knowledge, I do.

Furman is SMP and then whatever gets past the the SMP is a additional MOV.

This whole thread is useful

Audiogon Discussion Forum

If you have read erik_squires misinformation, please understand that he does not even know what a MOV looks like. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions...

forum.audiogon.com

It is also worth noting that the ZeroSurge patent is long expired which allows anyone to legally copy it today.

US4870534A - Power line surge suppressor - Google Patents

A surge suppressor for repeatedly protecting a load against surges occurring on A-C power mains from lightning surges or the like comprises a first series circuit having a first inductance and a first alternating voltage limiter, including at least a first capacitance and a bidirectionally...

patents.google.com

 

[T0paz]

How do they compare to zerosurge?

This guy on ebay is selling this for $300 used supposedly never used it which i dont believe lol

For that price i could buy zerosurge but it has 8 instead of 10

The SurgeX SA-1810 uses their Advanced Series Mode filter technology which virtually eliminates the surge energy and is analogous to ZeroSurge's Total Surge Cancellation technology products. TSC is a special order product (if it's still available). For most people Series Mode is probably good enough but if you want the absolute best in Series Mode you'd want Advanced Series Mode (SurgeX) or Total Surge Cancellation technology (ZeroSurge). BTW, the SurgeX SA-82 uses Series Mode technology (they said they could not get the inductor for ASM small enough to fit into their enclosure so they used SM technology.

 

[T0paz]

Furman is SMP and then whatever gets past the the SMP is a additional MOV.

This whole thread is useful

Audiogon Discussion Forum

If you have read erik_squires misinformation, please understand that he does not even know what a MOV looks like. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions...

forum.audiogon.com

It is also worth noting that the ZeroSurge patent is long expired which allows anyone to legally copy it today.

US4870534A - Power line surge suppressor - Google Patents

A surge suppressor for repeatedly protecting a load against surges occurring on A-C power mains from lightning surges or the like comprises a first series circuit having a first inductance and a first alternating voltage limiter, including at least a first capacitance and a bidirectionally...

patents.google.com

The original Series Mode patent (the one with the iron core that Furman copied and tweaked so it wasn't exactly the same same) expired. Neither ZeroSurge or SurgeX have relied on that patent since 2004.

The current Series mode filter patent with Wide Voltage Range will expire in 2024-03-17, and the Series mode filter with Total Surge Cancellation will expire in 2025-07-08.

If I had to bet, Furman will improve their SMP product sometime and be able to get rid of their problematic MOV in late 2025. They are large enough and will probably be more successful when the patent expires but many will continue to buy from ZeroSurge and SurgeX in the years to come, but do expect many knockoffs out of the far east in as soon as 2 years.

 

[Pancreas]

Why is their mov problematic?

Zerosurge is the best bang for buck, but their designs look pretty ugly in comparison to surgeX

I was interested in their 8 outlet isolated version which costs $325 in comparison to SA-1810 which right now is $699 which is ridiculous as for quite while it had been $619. They increased the price.

I just didn’t like that Zerosurge only has 8 outlets, and two of them are on the side of the brick. Their cable is shorter than SurgeX, the only advantage is the price and their plug is flat which Surgex is not.

I bought the Surgex supposedly mint from a music store seller on ebay Gramophone for $500.

Year 2022 it literally looked new.

I wouldn’t pay the surgex prices. I don’t need a rack at the moment. The racks are cheaper used cause thats what most people buy so there is an abundance of them

The standalone is more expensive cause is rare, probably costs more to build 10 outlets in a brick that size and cause the $699 price not many buy that version new so you wont find many used

I found the zerosurge 8 outlet on ebay for $125 used years 2022 which is pretty i was going to buy it but decided may be i dont need it then someone else bought it lmao

 

[gattaca]

You can locate good used SurgeX on eBay from reliable sellers for much less than full price... of course that's as-is, where-is .

I prefer the rack models as I don't need'm to look pretty for a AV display. I installed one in a kitchen cabinet for an expensive household appliance and I have an SX-20 on my expensive fridge as well. Never any issues.

I always keep a few models on-hand to help out friends and family. I've advised my son's friends against buying some inferior generic surge *(@( for their audio and computer systems. I sold'm for what I paid for them to help the kids out. They buy a $3000 Mac for their business and thousands in video equipment and then no surge.

I prefer the SX-1120-RT or the SX-1115-RT b/c they usually have all the COVUS features. I don't need'm to look nice. In fact, there's one for sale right now for less than $60 b/c the "ears are bent".. Inside these are like tanks and it already has the jumper installed in the green block.

Check out this AVS thread if you want more details. Many long time posters there too with a lot of value -> https://www.avsforum.com/threads/surge-protection-testing-thread.2916378/page-18#post-62651784 Cheers! Later.

 

[12Many]

I use brickwall, which is the same / similar technology. Happy with it and had it for about 15 years - they last. I don't really consider it consumer grade stuff the way it is built and priced. I have never had an item connected ruined, but can say that it protected anything either. I have had failures with un protected network equipment, but those things don't last forever anyway (router modem). I understand and agree that it is hard to spend the money - it is a bit like insurance - I have not been in an auto wreck for 20 years but still pay monthly. It is a one time cost is about 5% of the cost of the gear I have attached so I was ok with it. Per year, very cheap.

 

[T0paz]

Why is their mov problematic?

Zerosurge is the best bang for buck, but their designs look pretty ugly in comparison to surgeX

I was interested in their 8 outlet isolated version which costs $325 in comparison to SA-1810 which right now is $699 which is ridiculous as for quite while it had been $619. They increased the price.

I just didn’t like that Zerosurge only has 8 outlets, and two of them are on the side of the brick. Their cable is shorter than SurgeX, the only advantage is the price and their plug is flat which Surgex is not.

I bought the Surgex supposedly mint from a music store seller on ebay Gramophone for $500.

Year 2022 it literally looked new.

I wouldn’t pay the surgex prices. I don’t need a rack at the moment. The racks are cheaper used cause thats what most people buy so there is an abundance of them

The standalone is more expensive cause is rare, probably costs more to build 10 outlets in a brick that size and cause the $699 price not many buy that version new so you wont find many used

I found the zerosurge 8 outlet on ebay for $125 used years 2022 which is pretty i was going to buy it but decided may be i dont need it then someone else bought it lmao

All MOV's are problematic i.e. they are sacrificial and degrade with use. They divert the surge to the Neutral and Ground conductors so they don't really eliminate it. Once on the Neutral and Ground the surges have new lives and a chance to do more damage. For Furman, once the current Series Mode patents expire they may be able to "improve" their version of it (by copying the newer patents) and get rid of the MOV resulting in fewer if any returns.

 

[T0paz]

I use brickwall, which is the same / similar technology. Happy with it and had it for about 15 years - they last. I don't really consider it consumer grade stuff the way it is built and priced. I have never had an item connected ruined, but can say that it protected anything either. I have had failures with un protected network equipment, but those things don't last forever anyway (router modem). I understand and agree that it is hard to spend the money - it is a bit like insurance - I have not been in an auto wreck for 20 years but still pay monthly. It is a one time cost is about 5% of the cost of the gear I have attached so I was ok with it. Per year, very cheap.

Jim from ZeroSurge stated that Price Wheeler licensed the Series Mode technology and Price Wheeler's products use the name Brickwall and are made in the same factory that the ZeroSurge models are made at. In the late 90's / early 00's, ZeroSurge also made the SurgeX SX15-iR2 and SX20-iR2 which look exactly like the ZeroSurge 2R15W and 2R20W models of the era.

 

[Pancreas]

I just want better surge protectors where I connect my peripherals like phones, chargers, etc

The surgeX I have makes sense for my desk setup, but I want something similar to a regular strip but better

At the moment, I use tripplite 6 outlet surge protector which MOV and cheap.

Never had an issue with them. I thought about buying the Furman pst-8 as is $100 compared to zerosurge $290 and is smaller too

 

[Angsty]

The most affordable one is Zerosurge 8 outlet isolated duplex receptacles.

Its $325. I wonder if is worth spending on this for piece of mind. I have expensive, computer, console. studio monitors, guitar amp modeler, TV, etc.

I don't feel comfortable having all this equipment plugged into a $25 surge protectors sold on Amazon tbh

My concern since I'm a guitar player and use the studio monitors, would these expensive surge protectors make the sound worse?

I feel my SurgeX makes my Bryston power amp sound worse. Everything else is plugged into it with no audible impact, but the amp sounds “muffled” when plugged into it. I plug the amp directly into the wall socket. I have not tried the SurgeX with my other AB amps.

 

[T0paz]

I just want better surge protectors where I connect my peripherals like phones, chargers, etc

The surgeX I have makes sense for my desk setup, but I want something similar to a regular strip but better

At the moment, I use tripplite 6 outlet surge protector which MOV and cheap.

Never had an issue with them. I thought about buying the Furman pst-8 as is $100 compared to zerosurge $290 and is smaller too

We used a SurgeX SA-82 and a 6-outlet non MOV outlet strip but shortened its cord. The two are stacked atop each other so they take little countertop space, and have several charges plugged in. I think the SA-82 was $82 when purchased in 2015 and has a date of Dec 2009. You could plug your tripplite into a series mode which would make the MOV's inside it dormant i.e. it'd behave like an outlet strip. You could shorten the tripplite cord as well.

 

[Pancreas]

I feel my SurgeX makes my Bryston power amp sound worse. Everything else is plugged into it with no audible impact, but the amp sounds “muffled” when plugged into it. I plug the amp directly into the wall socket. I have not tried the SurgeX with my other AB amps.

I have my Genelec connected to it. Haven’t noticed any difference.

 

[Speedskater]

About 4 decades ago, MOV's earned a bad reputation for their failure mode. But modern MOV's have come a long way and so have surge protectors that use them.

 

[T0paz]

I feel my SurgeX makes my Bryston power amp sound worse. Everything else is plugged into it with no audible impact, but the amp sounds “muffled” when plugged into it. I plug the amp directly into the wall socket. I have not tried the SurgeX with my other AB amps.

I think I am blessed. I can't tell the difference between a $1200 power cord and the one that came with my receiver which is basically lamp cord but the Sansui sounds the same today as it did in 1976. A SurgeX SX-1115-RT is ahead of all the AV gear in the home theater with the Sansui.

About 4 decades ago, MOV's earned a bad reputation for their failure mode. But modern MOV's have come a long way and so have surge protectors that use them.

MOV Surge Protectors still make the news from the fires that are started by them. The article states some HVAC (Whole House Surge Protectors) were involved in fires as recently as May 2018 and Schneider Electric (APC) had a massive recall in 2013. MOV based surge protection devices are inexpensive, offer unbelievable warranties (until you try & collect on them) and don't really eliminate the surge, rather divert it where they have a chance to do more damage.

I understand that manufactures are trying to come up with clever ways to reduce the damage they can cause by wedging a thermistor (a resistor whose resistance is based on temperature) and either shutting off power to the MOV strip or electronically removing the MOV from the circuit when it is about to fail. Others are encasing the MOV in ceramic hoping it will preclude it from smoking or starting a fire, but fires still ensue, and a lot depends on who manufactured the MOV strip and was the thermistor tightly wedged against the MOV, etc. Since they are cheap, people buy them and think they are safe, but they are merely being lulled into a false sense of security.

Best of luck to all you.

 

[Pancreas]

That's like 99% of the population tho most people don't know anything about surge protection.

You got audiophiles and gamers who spend thousands on their equipment (especially gamers who seem to be more ignorant) and plug it all into a $25 Amazon protector.

They have thousands and thousands invested in their gaming rigs but use a cheap surge protector strip that they just stick or hide under the desk for "cable management"

The audiophiles/musicians may do a little better, maybe they have more expensive surge protectors like Furman, condensers, etc still MOV probably

I'd say very few % of the population use these series mode protectors. They're niche products, not only because they are expensive, but most people just don't know about them, but even if they did, they wouldn't spend hundreds on a surge protector which is ironic as they spent thousands on their gear, why so cheap bruh?

That's because they have been conditioned for years if not decades to believe the $25 protector is good enough

I'd also say most people do not have whole home protection at either the meter or circuit breaker.

Even if the patent expires and more brands release series mode products, the general public won't buy them

These products may end up being cheaper than zerosurge or surgex, but still considerably more than most surge protectors between $20-50 bracker which is where 99% of buy

 

[egellings]

It definitely won't affect sound, but if you have expensive equipment that you want piece of mind to protect and have the money, why not. Don't know if its still commonplace but many reputable brands used to offer like $20k-100k worth of "guarantee" for destroyed equipment that was plugged into their protectors in the case of failure, don't know if those brands do that still.

I wonder how much those brands actually paid out in claims.

 

[T0paz]

I wonder how much those brands actually paid out in claims.

I tried filing a claim once and the company (APC) run me through a gauntlet. They want you to send in the damaged surge protector (you never get it back & if you have any issues with the claims process, you're out of luck since you don't have the damaged surge protector). You may get a new (replacement) surge protector. Once they have your surge protector they may inform you that their Surge Protector was not the cause of your problem i.e. the surge that destroyed your gear came from some other device.

You may have connected peripherals and you may have telephone, Ethernet, or Coax inputs. You may even have more than one Surge Protector and no two Surge Protectors (even from the same company, or in the same device, will turn on at exactly the same voltage).

If it turns out the SPD was at fault and still damaged your equipment you'll need to take your gear to have it independently verified (at your expense) and that the damage was from a surge, or worse send it to the manufacture (again at your expense) and once verification is confirmed you'll get a check based on the fair market value of your gear i.e. Craigslist, eBay, or other online auctions, sales, etc ... So the older your gear the less money you'll get if you manage to get all the way through the process, and you may not even end up with your gear. They may make you file a claim through your insurance company first and then pay you afterwards minus the amount you got from your insurance company, so take the SPD manufactures connected equipment warranty with a grain of salt. The process is not designed to be easy.

This makes another case for better protection i.e. Series Mode, if you paid a lot for your gear. To the best of my knowledge, neither ZeroSurge (including Brickwall) or SurgeX Series Mode filters carry a connected equipment warranty, but they do generally offer up to a 10 year warranty on their Series Mode filters. Since they are non-sacrificial many will continue to operate well past 10 years just as if they were brand new.

The part that is lost on many people is that at best they only get fair market value of their surge damaged gear. The devil is in the details. That's why many companies can afford to offer such huge dollar amount warranties because they know very few people will ever collect anywhere near that amount..

In a similar manner, many companies claim to offer very high joule protection but none will tell you how the number was calculated. Place 3 MOV's in parallel (knowing that only one will ever turn on). What of the other 2? At a nickel or quarter each x 3 for H-N, H-G, N-G the company spent 60 cents to $1.50 extra and were able to claim a very high joule rating of protection and hopefully you drank the Kool-aid and bought their product instead of their competitors.

 

[Heyu]

I just heard of Zerosurge. Am I missing anything compared to my Panamax M5300 and Monster HTS 3600?

 

[Speedskater]

Why would you expect to hear a difference?

 

[T0paz]

I just heard of Zerosurge. Am I missing anything compared to my Panamax M5300 and Monster HTS 3600?

Yes, you can read about ZeroSurge here. They guy that started the company ZeroSurge invented and patented Series Mode technology. Many years later, Furman used an expired Series Mode patent as the basis of their Series Multi-stage Protection (SMP) but had to in the end have an MOV to deal with residual surges. Monster used MOV's in the HTS 3600. MOV's by their very nature sacrifice a little of themselves each time they divert surge energy until all the protection is gone. Diverted surges have a new life and an opportunity to destroy nearby electronics as they search for GROUND.