Would ZeroSurge or SurgeX worth it and would make sound worse?

[Pancreas]

All MOV's are problematic i.e. they are sacrificial and degrade with use. They divert the surge to the Neutral and Ground conductors so they don't really eliminate it. Once on the Neutral and Ground the surges have new lives and a chance to do more damage. For Furman, once the current Series Mode patents expire they may be able to "improve" their version of it (by copying the newer patents) and get rid of the MOV resulting in fewer if any returns.

if Furman uses the inductors for advanced series mode, wouldn't that mean their design would have to change?

It would have to in brick or rack mode, as it may not fit or work in the PST-8 strip size

So when these patents expire, the PST-8 may remain as is and they will come up with a new line of products advertising true serie mode

If the price of a PST8 is $200, it used to be $100 dont know how the hell they increase the price

Furman PST-8 8 Outlet Power Station

8-outlet Power Strip/Conditioner and Surge Protector

www.sweetwater.com

Then, their new line will cost just as much as Zero Surge or maybe slightly less

 

[Angsty]

I have a SurgeX but I don’t use it with my Class AB power amp, which has a linear power supply. It works well with all my other components but limits the current draw on my power amp to the point that it makes it sound worse.

If I had a power amp with a switching power supply, like the Benchmark, I’d think it would be fine.

 

[johnnyindia]

I own an 8 outlet Zero Surge, and when I asked the company if I could plug in a power strip into one of the Zero Surge outlets, they suggested they can't recommend that due to safety code, and can only recommend plugging a power strip into the main wall outlet.

I understand for liabilities sake, they may have to say that, so I figured I'd ask here if anyone knows if there's any issue with this.

Basically, I have an 8 outlet Zero Surge, and I'm looking to connect 3 synthesizers, a couple of tape delays, a couple of tube guitar amps, and then I have a bunch of effects pedals....considering this, are there certain devices I should have connected directly to the zero surge, and others that are safe to use a power strip connected to the zero surge? Or should I connect some of these devices directly to the wall via a power strip?

Thanks for the clarification if anyone has guidance and advice here!

 

[Fred H]

I own an 8 outlet Zero Surge, and when I asked the company if I could plug in a power strip into one of the Zero Surge outlets, they suggested they can't recommend that due to safety code, and can only recommend plugging a power strip into the main wall outlet.

I understand for liabilities sake, they may have to say that, so I figured I'd ask here if anyone knows if there's any issue with this.

Basically, I have an 8 outlet Zero Surge, and I'm looking to connect 3 synthesizers, a couple of tape delays, a couple of tube guitar amps, and then I have a bunch of effects pedals....considering this, are there certain devices I should have connected directly to the zero surge, and others that are safe to use a power strip connected to the zero surge? Or should I connect some of these devices directly to the wall via a power strip?

Thanks for the clarification if anyone has guidance and advice here!

I've been plugging power strips into Zero surge outlets for decades without any difficulties.

 

[egellings]

So long as all the devices plugged into the power strip don't draw more current than the outlet the strip is plugged into can safely handle, then I see no problem with that.

 

[johnnyindia]

and in this case a power strip without a MOV/surge protection is preferable? I read that Furman MOVs can "shunt surges to the ground line, causing ground line contamination., and was advised to use a power strip without a MOV/Surge protection. Not sure I understand this.

 

[Speedskater]

Bill Whitlock wrote about MOV's dumping noise onto the Safety Ground.
I'll look for the page.

 

[johnnyindia]

Bill Whitlock wrote about MOV's dumping noise onto the Safety Ground.
I'll look for the page.

Thanks

So something like this plugged into one of the outlets of the Zero Surge would work?

Amazon.com

 

[johnnyindia]

Realized that amazon link was a MOV based surge.

I could benefit from 4 extra outlets from my 8 outlet Zero Surge (to connect some synths which are not on all the time, but I'd like to have plugged in and ready.

This looks like a nice 4 outlet non-MOV power strip - https://conwaygoods.com/collections/exto-4/products/12-exto-4-carrara

ZeroSurge customer support is advising me to plug the Conway directly into the wall, and not into an outlet on the Zero Surge as it won't benefit from the Zero Surge and is not advisable to daisy chain it into the Zero Surge for safety code reasons; do you think their advice is just to protect themselves from responsibility when using another product? Or is there actually a safety concern to not plug the Conway into the Zero Surge, and instead just plug it directly into the wall? Figured I'd take advantage of the Zero Surge's protection and any other benefits by plugging the Conway into it, but maybe it doesn't matter. The Conway will have some synths plugged into it, maybe a tape echo and some effects pedals).

 

[Fred H]

I've had power strips, both MOV (computer) and non-MOV (audio and TV), plugged into my Zero Surges for decades with no issues. I think the advice is in case you overload the power strip.

 

[jtwrace]

Realized that amazon link was a MOV based surge.

I could benefit from 4 extra outlets from my 8 outlet Zero Surge (to connect some synths which are not on all the time, but I'd like to have plugged in and ready.

This looks like a nice 4 outlet non-MOV power strip - https://conwaygoods.com/collections/exto-4/products/12-exto-4-carrara

ZeroSurge customer support is advising me to plug the Conway directly into the wall, and not into an outlet on the Zero Surge as it won't benefit from the Zero Surge and is not advisable to daisy chain it into the Zero Surge for safety code reasons; do you think their advice is just to protect themselves from responsibility when using another product? Or is there actually a safety concern to not plug the Conway into the Zero Surge, and instead just plug it directly into the wall? Figured I'd take advantage of the Zero Surge's protection and any other benefits by plugging the Conway into it, but maybe it doesn't matter. The Conway will have some synths plugged into it, maybe a tape echo and some effects pedals).

It's for liability reasons. If you have a 2 outlet version they will tell you that it's ok to plug it in. When you have an 8 outlet version they can't tell you to plug another power strip into it.

 

[johnnyindia]

I've had power strips, both MOV (computer) and non-MOV (audio and TV), plugged into my Zero Surges for decades with no issues. I think the advice is in case you overload the power strip.

Thanks. I don't think there's any chance of overloading the strip so I'll plug the strip into the Zero Surge.

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

Bill Whitlock wrote about MOV's dumping noise onto the Safety Ground.
I'll look for the page.

Perhaps this?
https://www.jensen-transformers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/generic-seminar.pdf

Pretty much any device placed across two lines will have capacitance. A MOV suitable for use on a 120Vac probably has on the order of 100-1000pF.

UNDERSTANDING, FINDING, & ELIMINATING GROUND LOOPS IN AUDIO & VIDEO SYSTEMS
2005 Generic Seminar Template, Bill Whitlock

All MOV's are problematic i.e. they are sacrificial and degrade with use. They divert the surge to the Neutral and Ground conductors so they don't really eliminate it. Once on the Neutral and Ground the surges have new lives and a chance to do more damage. For Furman, once the current Series Mode patents expire they may be able to "improve" their version of it (by copying the newer patents) and get rid of the MOV resulting in fewer if any returns.

I would have to disagree with this as a blanket statement.
As with everything, technology moves on. While the basic MOV will "fail short", they now offer composite designs with GDT (gas discharge tube), polyswitches etc. It's similar to why they invented X and Y capacitors.

With respect to "fires", it often is not the MOV which is the issue. It is the rest of the circuit can't handle the shunted current. Poor soldering can lead to a narrow point of conduction causing hot spots. I would agree avoiding any inexpensive device with MOVs.

"Series Mode" does well to protect the equipment which is plugged into the SPD3 (surge protection device plugged into an outlet). However, it does very little in dissipating the energy on the branch circuit side. Parallel devices such as MOVs, gas discharge tubes, TVS (transient voltage suppression) diodes all work by essentially clamping the voltage, essentially shorting out the surge component above that clamping voltage.

It also generally had other/traditional components AFTER. If you measure the waveform before and after a series device, the pulse amplitude is significantly diminished, but elongated in time. Why? It's major effect is being a low pass filter with a cut off frequency on the order of kHz. A typical surge event is on the order of 1 to 100s µsec long.
It still needs to clamp/shunt that voltage/current to ground, but its less damaging to the compoents.


The most effective protection is a layered approach. Ideally your power utility offers the instillation of a SPD1 lightning arrestor. That will pass the 'lesser surges' as it's designed to react only at higher voltages yet is better able to handle a near lightning event. Then a SPD2 "whole house" device right at the head of the main circuit panel which will have a lower voltage setpoint. You can also couple it with a SPD2 for the particular branch circuit you really care about. Then have a quality "Series Mode" SPD3 at the outlet.


.

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

Here is a photo of a SurgeX SX-AX15E we performed full EMC compliance testing on for a customer a decade ago.
I believe it was tested at the Class 4 level (2k/4kV @ 1000/2000A) for 61000-4-5 and 61000-4-12. It did well.

I quickly added a few labels to it.
It's a bit of a headscratcher on why they placed the switching board in the front requiring them to pass all the lines to the outlets in the rear. I would have done a separate board for the LEDs and passed them via a ribbon cable.
Note for the "golden ears", there's no filtering at all on each of the banks.

 

[johnnyindia]

Looking at the 4 outlet "SurgeX SX-DS-154 MULTIPAK Surge Protector Power Conditioner" - does this function similarly to the ZeroSurge? I need 4 extra outlets available, and I was considering a 4 outlet non-surge power strip plugged into one of the Zero Surge outlets....but I could also get this (on eBay they have some new ones for around $150), and plug it directly into the wall on the same outlet my Zero Surge is plugged into. That would save me an outlet on the Zero Surge.

 

[Pancreas]

Looking at the 4 outlet "SurgeX SX-DS-154 MULTIPAK Surge Protector Power Conditioner" - does this function similarly to the ZeroSurge? I need 4 extra outlets available, and I was considering a 4 outlet non-surge power strip plugged into one of the Zero Surge outlets....but I could also get this (on eBay they have some new ones for around $150), and plug it directly into the wall on the same outlet my Zero Surge is plugged into. That would save me an outlet on the Zero Surge.

No, that device is not series mode.

Zero Surge is only series mode, not advanced series which is better

If you need a standalone device with more outlets and advanced series mode, this but is not cheap

 

[Pancreas]

Looking at the 4 outlet "SurgeX SX-DS-154 MULTIPAK Surge Protector Power Conditioner" - does this function similarly to the ZeroSurge? I need 4 extra outlets available, and I was considering a 4 outlet non-surge power strip plugged into one of the Zero Surge outlets....but I could also get this (on eBay they have some new ones for around $150), and plug it directly into the wall on the same outlet my Zero Surge is plugged into. That would save me an outlet on the Zero Surge.

That is a Defender Series device, avoid anything defender lol

SurgeX has become synonymous with making Series Mode Surge Eliminators that totally eliminate a surge. Their claim to fame is that they don't use MOV's (Metal Oxide Varistors) and are therefore non-sacrificial. They also claim that they don't contaminate "ground" because the surge is slowed down in real-time, stored as energy in capacitor banks and safely bled onto the Neutral a few volts at a time.

In 2009, Frontier Electronics (the makers of the SurgeX product line) was acquired by ESP and this product appears to trade on the SurgeX name. The Defenders Series including this product only state that it uses "multi-stage" technology which is "superior to conventional single stage MOV circuitry". So what exactly is "multi-stage" technology?

ESP/SurgeX define the technology used in the Defender Series (see comment)

The multi-stage technology consists of three stages:
STAGE 1: DIVERTER. Using a combination of varistors (MOV's) and gas discharge tubes to divert the surge energy to GROUND.
STAGE 2: EMI/RFI FILTRATION: Often an RLC circuit to reduce noise, but can be as simple as a capacitor.
STAGE 3: CLAMP. Additional MOV's (which divert the energy to GROUND)

Interestingly this is no different than just about every other MOV based surge protector. Even the $10 surge protector you buy in a grocery store often contains these 3 stages and in marketing hyperbole (no one really makes a single stage MOV based surge protector).

What's interesting here is that for years SurgeX has educated consumers by informing about the limitations of MOV's which are sacrificial, work at voltage thresholds instead of all the time, and divert the surge energy to GROUND where it basically contaminates Ground.

It would appear that ESP is trading on the SurgeX name hoping to lure unsuspecting buyers who have come to know SurgeX as being synonymous with Series Mode technology which this device is not. This device then could lure an unsuspecting buyer into a false sense of security.

Earlier this year the combined ESP/SurgeX company was acquired by another company. It will be interesting to see if the new company continues to trade on the SurgeX name. Bottom line, if it does not state that it uses Series Mode (SM), or Advanced Series Mode (ASM) technology then it does not use Series Mode. We have to look beyond the SurgeX name now.