WiiM Ultra

[uofmtiger]

IIRC AirPlay 2 is adaptive based on network bandwidth; so Darko's results may not be universal.

While I certainly prefer lossless, most people would have difficulty telling lossless from 256 kbps AAC compression in a blind test. In fact, 256 kbps AAC is generally considered to be better than 320 kbps MP3 which most people can't tell from CD quality. I'll personally stick with lossless Tidal just the same.

This is in line with the chart he posted on a video before. I took a snapshot of it at the time and it is posted below.

I had the same results with Apple Music which is using Airplay 2 (lossy) and Amazon Music which is using Airplay 1 (lossless).

 

[Petrushka]

Interesting, I didn't know that was available in the Wiim app. He doesn't mention Amazon Music, but I checked and it is sending the lossless audio stream. As he mentioned, Apple Music is being converted. Apple Music is using Airplay 2 to solve the drop out issues some had and to make sure they have the bandwidth for multi-room audio.

Multi-room with sync is hard, why Roon, Sonos, and Airplay2 have managed. Any others?

 

[BrooklynNick]

This is in line with the chart he posted on a video before. I took a snapshot of it at the time and it is posted below.

I had the same results with Apple Music which is using Airplay 2 (lossy) and Amazon Music which is using Airplay 1 (lossless).

That is interesting. Someone should try sending using something other than Apple Music, such as from an Apple TV 4K or the latest Roon server, to see if this is an Apple Music limitation or a limitation of the AirPlay 2 protocol.

 

[uofmtiger]

Multi-room with sync is hard, why Roon, Sonos, and Airplay2 have managed. Any others?

The thing I find interesting is that Amazon Music (which is using Airplay 1 protocol) can send lossless to Airplay 2 devices. When I Airplay to two WIIM devices, both are getting lossless streams.

 

[Petrushka]

That is interesting. Someone should try sending using something other than Apple Music, such as from an Apple TV 4K or the latest Roon server, to see if this is an Apple Music limitation or a limitation of the AirPlay 2 protocol.

Roon claims their implementation of AP2 is lossless CD quality.

 

[BrooklynNick]

I just read that WiiM is saying that they can't support AirPlay 2 due to not having the Apple MFi authentication chip and they say they can't add the chip to the hardware until it is certified. In other words, they were required to get it certified before releasing it. That does not explain how Roon is able to do it, but maybe they made a deal with Apple since they run on hardware that will never have an MFi chip. I still think WiiM could just add AirPlay 1 support for the Ultra.

 

[Petrushka]

Apple Music to Wiim

The thing I find interesting is that Amazon Music (which is using Airplay 1 protocol) can send lossless to Airplay 2 devices. When I Airplay to two WIIM devices, both are getting lossless streams.

Because end points accept both. The extra bandwidth needed for synch seem to have been a problem. Perhaps current routers have enough bandwidth.

 

[uofmtiger]

Because end points accept both. The extra bandwidth needed for synch seem to have been a problem. Perhaps current routers have enough bandwidth.

I assume that Apple is trying to support old routers with their Apple Music Airplay 2 implementation. I have never had issues with Airplay 1 and I know it was a common issue from seeing numerous complaints online...even using one stream to one Airplay 1 device.

 

[BrooklynNick]

I assume that Apple is trying to support old routers with their Apple Music Airplay 2 implementation. I have never had issues with Airplay 1 and I know it was a common issue from seeing numerous complaints online...even using one stream to one Airplay 1 device.

I think that is a pretty likely explanation. They need it to work on older networks. I did think it was an adaptive protocol, but it sounds like it might not be.

 

[uofmtiger]

I think that is a pretty likely explanation. They need it to work on older networks. I did think it was an adaptive protocol, but it sounds like it might not be.

I remember reading that Apple's engineers believed that their 256k AAC files were transparent when compared to lossless (this was years ago, so don't have a link). I think they implemented hi res and lossless just to keep up with the other services, but I don't think it is something they care about.

 

[uofmtiger]

but can you see the covers when you click on Albums?

Sorry, my old Synology server decided to flake out, so I had to restart it. I am not seeing album art, but it may just be reindexing, so I can't give a complete response.

As a side note, with LMS (Logitech Media Server) running off a hard drive, I can see album art when I pull up albums.

 

[Petrushka]

I remember reading that Apple's engineers believed that their 256k AAC files were transparent when compared to lossless (this was years ago, so don't have a link). I think they implemented hi res and lossless just to keep up with the other services, but I don't think it is something they care about.

Speakers have improved, and younger people are buying them. 256 is fine for me.

 

[uofmtiger]

Speakers have improved, and younger people are buying them. 256 is fine for me.

I mainly use Amazon with the Wiim, but I will keep the 1st gen AirPort Express connected just in case I want to Airplay to the Ultra.

 

[somebodyelse]

Multi-room with sync is hard, why Roon, Sonos, and Airplay2 have managed. Any others?

LMS to some extent. It probably worked well when all the players were their own hardware, but now with software players and different audio output chain latencies they can be a bit out of sync.

 

[Abdo]

Sorry, my old Synology server decided to flake out, so I had to restart it. I am not seeing album art, but it may just be reindexing, so I can't give a complete response.

As a side note, with LMS (Logitech Media Server) running off a hard drive, I can see album art when I pull up albums.

Apparently you have a server running on the NAS, I just pointed the Wiim to the folder, this may be the reason. I had Logitech many years ago and today I tried to find where to find it to download for Synology, but it is very confusing where to find it and how to install it. Do you have a link where to download it? Thanks.

 

[uofmtiger]

Apparently you have a server running on the NAS, I just pointed the Wiim to the folder, this may be the reason. I had Logitech many years ago and today I tried to find where to find it to download for Synology, but it is very confusing where to find it and how to install it. Do you have a link where to download it? Thanks.

Unforunately, I didn't write down anything when I installed it years ago. I dont have it running on a server. It is running on a computer I only use for serving files (Plex, LMS, etc). This link may help https://lyrion.org/ .

Plex maybe easier to do with and it also has the album art in the Wiim app.

 

[Petrushka]

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Edgar-Hernandez-Huaripaucar

 

[jetman]

Perhaps from a third party retailer - but I doubt very much from wiim. This is because (see assumption above) the wiim already is audibly perfect. That means it has flat frequency response, and noise/distortion output from the DAC is below the level our ears can detect. Therefore changing the power supply - even if it improves the measurements - cannot improve the audible performance. Once audible perfection is reached, further improvements are redundant - you cannot make the imperfections more inaudible.

What I state above also applies to the Wiim pro - whatever power supply you might have tested will not be making a real audible improvement. Whatever improvements you think you heard will either be from insufficiently matched levels - or from sighted listening - which we know is unreliable. Only properly controlled blind comparisons can be relied upon to compare devices for real audible differences. And then, apart from anything else, the time it takes to change the PSU will take longer than your audio echoic memory lasts meaning you are unable to realistically compare in any case.

So to answer your 2 questions.

1 - No, they will sound the same no matter which PSU is used
2 - Not from Wiim. Unlikely from anyone else.

Hope that helps

Hi, Ant. Thanks for your reply. Do you mean the Wiim Pro, or Pro Plus? I've heard the analogue out (DAC) of the Pro and it's extremely poor, the analogue out (DAC) of the Pro Plus far superior.

I'm not sure what you're saying by "audibly perfect" and that even "improved measurements" would have no outcome on sound quality. There's no such thing as an audibly perfect DAC, is there? What's perfect? They don't all sound the same.

In my (subjective, unblinded) listening 'test' I had no difficulty in immediately recognising that the iPower2 power supply made a substantial improvement to sound quality in my system, it wasn't subtle. I've been mostly using the Wiim Pro Plus for audio from my tv; voices from shows I'd been watching for weeks and was very familiar with, had more solidity and presence, more texture and felt more like they were 'in the room', there was also a reduction in sibilance; stereo imaging was more solid, dynamics improved. That was my experience.

 

[antcollinet]

There's no such thing as an audibly perfect DAC, is there?

Yes, there is - look at all the DACs in the blue and pretty much all the green sections of the chart here.

What's perfect?

When the imperfections (noise distortion and frequency response) are so small that the human ear is not capable of detecting them - so audibly perfect

Our ears have neither infinite sensitivity, nor infinite bandwidth.

They don't all sound the same.

If you have two dacs that are audibly perfect (and a majority of modern ones are) then they must -by definition, sound the same.**see below the line of ******** at the bottom of this post for more detail on this.

In my (subjective, unblinded) listening 'test' I had no difficulty in immediately recognising that the iPower2 power supply made a substantial improvement to sound quality in my system, it wasn't subtle.

I'm not surprised. In unblinded subjective listening tests there are all sorts of things going on in your subconcious brain that will alter the sound before it reaches your conscious brain. This is not a criticism - everyone's brain is doing this all the time - it is how we are built - it helps us to function.

Assuming the devices you are comparing are half way decent, if you tested blind, and controlled (including accurate level metching) I am confident those unsubtle differences would evaporate.

Do you mean the Wiim Pro, or Pro Plus? I've heard the analogue out (DAC) of the Pro and it's extremely poor, the analogue out (DAC) of the Pro Plus far superior.

Yes, I did mean the pro+... BUT: the pro, like the mini has a sinad of around 90dB - while this is not guaranteed inaudible for everyone, it is for the vast vast majority (in blind tests the vast majority can't hear -45dB distortion - let alone -90dB). Purely on a statistical basis the odds of you being one of the tiny minority who can hear the difference is vanishingly small. If you are over the age of 30 I would say zero. Most likely the reason you hear it as worse is you have read that it measures worse, and your perceptive biases ensure that is how you hear it.

**********
** A DAC has one, and only one job, and that is to accurately convert the digital representation of music from the source into an analog representation of that music. Well measuring DACS do that with inaudible levels of noise and distortion, and with flat frequency response in the audible band. In other words the analogue output is (audibly) a perfect representation of the digitally encoded music.

If two DACS both achieve this (and well measuring DACS do) then the analog signal from both must be identical within audible limits. By definition, they must sound the same.

Or at least, assuming the amp and speakers are the same, will result in identical sound waves reaching the ear of the listener. What the listeners brain does with that sound information, and how it mixes in the environment, expectations of the listener, mood of the listener etc etc to "colour" the perception of that sound has nothing to do with the performance of the DAC.

 

[Owis]

Because end points accept both. The extra bandwidth needed for synch seem to have been a problem. Perhaps current routers have enough bandwidth.

Are you saying WiiMs (pre Ultra)use both Airplay 1 & 2?