Music Streaming Devices Comparison Discussion

[hatmann900]

I can't tell the difference in the audio between the two, maybe my ears are already tired... lol. As for usage, I prefer Tidal, I understand myself better with it. Now the question is why both... there are many things that are on Tidal that are not on Qobuz... and vice versa. Just like I subscribe to Spotify, there are songs that are only on there... but Spotify is not on Roon, so my Spotify is more for when I'm on the street, with phones and the connections are slower and then I prefer Spotify. I sync my playlists using Soundiz, I've already looked for something better, if by chance you have any suggestions

Thank you.
So far, I am streaming only, no Roon. I've been trying Quobuz, Tidal, Apple and Amazon Music. Tidal and Quboz seem to have somewhat better sound, which is important to me. Although the last time I tried Amazon Music ifor an extended time t sounded pretty darn good.
Quboz has been an issue for me because it doesn't always allow me to log on and their AI or their humans have been no help.

 

[Pritaudio]

Bluesound have launched a competitive new node. £499, compared to £349 Wiim ultra.
More expensive, but the middle model does Dirac live (although I’m not sure it’s included).
Sub out and a good headphone output.
Processor same as Wiim.
I don’t think the inbuilt eq and sub crossover will be as good as the Wiim.
No chromecast ready.
Not sure the software support will be up to date as the Wiim.
Interested in a comparison when available.

 

[uofmtiger]

Bluesound have launched a competitive new node. £499, compared to £349 Wiim ultra.
More expensive, but the middle model does Dirac live (although I’m not sure it’s included).
Sub out and a good headphone output.
Processor same as Wiim.
I don’t think the inbuilt eq and sub crossover will be as good as the Wiim.
No chromecast ready.
Not sure the software support will be up to date as the Wiim.
Interested in a comparison when available.

I think the Node with the LCD will be $999 and it is bigger than the Wiim Ultra, but won't be a touchscreen. Wiim has cheaper models without a touchscreen, as well, if the LCD is not something one needs.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Hell no.... try again...Measured db levels are the same at my listening position. There is this percussion in the background i can hear on the Wiim. I can't hear it on the SMSL, it just ain't there guy!!

You MUST measure using a voltmeter at the output terminals and get the levels of both DACs to be identical, or within 0.1V of each other. Then use identical reconstruction filter settings.

A dB meter is nowhere near accurate enough, so useless.

 

[Pritaudio]

Does the Wiim pro offer the seperate eq of left and right channel stereo that the Wiim ultra does ?

 

[Brian Hall]

Let's assume all DACs sound the same
Then why is ESS and AKM are still making new DAC chips?
Why bother?

Each one makes new chips because the other one is making new chips. If one stopped, the other would point it out. "Ours is newer. It must be better than their older chip.".

 

[Brian Hall]

What differences have you found in ease of use and sound quality between Quobuz and Tidal?

Spotify, Youtube Music, Tidal and Amazon all have connect options from their apps. Qobuz does not. I don't hear a sound quality difference between them.

Qobuz is only the best at consistently recommending music I don't like and would never listen to.

 

[lowkeyoperations]

All properly engineered dacs sound pretty much identical/identical depending upon reconstruction filter.
Keith

“Pretty much identical” is just another way of saying “different” though isn’t it.

Re the SMSL and Wiim possibly sounding different:- record the analogue outputs directly. Accurately level match. Flip the phase of one. If it nulls it sounds the same. There is no difference to hear. If not, it IS different.

“Pretty much” is undefinable.

 

[MaxBuck]

Has anyone determined whether the digital signal out from the Wiim is the same as the digital signal in (from the streaming source)? I have no idea how one would even do that.

 

[antcollinet]

So...I am hearing some detail on this Ultra on a couple of tracks that i'm not hearing on my SMSL. Going back and forth, it is more audible on this Wiim. What the hell is going on here man? I thought all DACs in the world should sound the same after reading through ASR audio services threads.

Try again - accurately (with a voltmeter) level matched, and blind.

 

[antcollinet]

Hell no.... try again...Measured db levels are the same at my listening position. There is this percussion in the background i can hear on the Wiim. I can't hear it on the SMSL, it just ain't there guy!!

Sound pressure db meters are not accurate enough.

 

[antcollinet]

I'm thinking not all DACs sound the same despite the measurements

Find two well measuring dacs you can tell apart 9/10 times when accurately (with a volt meter) level matched and when you don't know which is playing - and we may have something to talk about.

 

[Purité Audio]

“Pretty much identical” is just another way of saying “different” though isn’t it.

Re the SMSL and Wiim possibly sounding different:- record the analogue outputs directly. Accurately level match. Flip the phase of one. If it nulls it sounds the same. There is no difference to hear. If not, it IS different.

“Pretty much” is undefinable.

To clarify, the only possible difference would be the choice of reconstruction filter.
Keith

 

[lowkeyoperations]

To clarify, the only possible difference would be the choice of reconstruction filter.
Keith

Sure, but it's only possible to listen to a DAC through a reconstruction filter [with the very odd exceptions], and there are a wide variety of measurable differences between filter types. You almost never just hear the DAC signal as is. You almost always hear the signal from the filter output. Separating the 2 isn't particularly useful as most units sold to people can't be separated. Its like saying all integrated amplifiers are the same apart from the output stage

On top of that, DACs can measure differently, eg. r2r vs delta sigma.

 

[Purité Audio]

Both the AKM and ESS come with a selection of pre-configured filters which only affect the the very highest frequencies which ‘we’ will not be able to hear anyway.
Dacs are done, if there are audible differences, ie one design adding audible distortion it will be evident in the unit’s measurements.
Keith

 

[lowkeyoperations]

Both the AKM and ESS come with a selection of pre-configured filters which only affect the the very highest frequencies which ‘we’ will not be able to hear anyway.
Dacs are done, if there are audible differences, ie one design adding audible distortion it will be evident in the unit’s measurements.
Keith

There ARE measurable differences between Dacs and filter types. Filter types measurably show differences in the time domain and frequency domain, not just distortion.

Describing DACs as “done” and “pretty much identical” when there’s plenty of different measuring DACs and filters is more of a subjective bias than objective description.

Someone hearing a difference could certainly be due to the filter implementation. As I said, the best way to check is a null test if you have both units side by side, because most people don’t have equipment to actually run a full suite of measurements on a DAC.

 

[Purité Audio]

Dacs measure differently, the key question always is audibilty, does a particular unit add enough distortion to be audible.
The only way to decide is to compare level matched and unsighted, if you can reliably pick then there is a difference.
Keith

 

[antcollinet]

To clarify, the only possible difference would be the choice of reconstruction filter.
Keith

And even that is going to be inaudible to most people.

 

[antcollinet]

There ARE measurable differences between Dacs and filter types. Filter types measurably show differences in the time domain and frequency domain, not just distortion.

Describing DACs as “done” and “pretty much identical” when there’s plenty of different measuring DACs and filters is more of a subjective bias than objective description.

Someone hearing a difference could certainly be due to the filter implementation. As I said, the best way to check is a null test if you have both units side by side, because most people don’t have equipment to actually run a full suite of measurements on a DAC.

The measured differences are inaudible in nearly all (all well designed) dacs. That is the definition of transparent. So if you listen to two transparent measuring DACs using the Fast rolloff filter (The most accurate and normally default) then they sound the same.

Remember - all audible differences are measurable. More important to bear in mind - not all measured differences are audible.

Remember also - if you are not doing a level matched blind comparison - you cannot know if any difference you hear is in the sound waves reaching your ears, or is created in the wetware between them. If you are hearing a difference between two transparent measuring dacs, the overwhelming likelihood is the latter.

You almost always hear the signal from the filter output.

This is also where we measure them. We don't need to separate.

 

[lowkeyoperations]

The measured differences are inaudible in nearly all (all well designed) dacs. That is the definition of transparent. So if you listen to two transparent measuring DACs using the Fast rolloff filter (The most accurate and normally default) then they sound the same.

Remember - all audible differences are measurable. More important to bear in mind - not all measured differences are audible.

Remember also - if you are not doing a level matched blind comparison - you cannot know if any difference you hear is in the sound waves reaching your ears, or is created in the wetware between them. If you are hearing a difference between two transparent measuring dacs, the overwhelming likelihood is the latter.

This is also where we measure them. We don't need to separate.

In the real case given above, has the Wiim Ultra been measured to be “transparent”?

Has the SMSL DAC mentioned above also been measured to be “transparent”?