For what it’s worth, the Volvo XC90 had Dirac ART (called Unison back then) to deal with these issues. I have never heard the XC90 sound system in a critical manner, but there can be technology to help with this.
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Why is it difficult to get CD quality car audio gear?
- Thread starter ThatM1key
- Start date
For what it’s worth, the Volvo XC90 had Dirac ART (called Unison back then) to deal with these issues. I have never heard the XC90 sound system in a critical manner, but there can be technology to help with this.
- Thread Starter
- #22
The thing with Excelon products is that when you pay more, the DB and SNR numbers don't go up that much. That's why I settled for the cheapest Excelon, the DPX395MBT, I didn't want to risk going with anything higher.
The factory systems I seen myself, if you got a good factory amp, then you'll easily be able to have some good bass out of rear deck 6x9s. My fathers van has a factory 10" (in the back) and it doesn't sound right for its size, its sounds like a 6.5" for how low it goes (like 40ish hz) and the power being fed to that 10" doesn't sound like a lot.gawd what ridiculous crap. That's another curse and millstone, is the advertising has become obsessed with how many speakers there are...but the "sub"woofers are still like some 6" thing. I've only heard one stock vehicle that had truly pumpable bass, a Nissan Armada with a Rockford Fosgate OEM system with I guess a pretty big sub buried in the large center console.
Waxx
Major Contributor
Higher end cars have good soundsystems, often from Burmester, Meridian or B&O. But like said most cars are very noisy inside, so a high SNR does not matter really. It's only hi end cars that are isolated enough that it may matter. I've driven a Mercedes S580e recently (testing it for a luxury rental company i sometimes work for) with an amazing good Burmester system in it. But that is a 190K€ limousine that is totally silent inside, not your average everyday car.
And my 2019 Skoda Octavia media system reads all formats i did test, most of my music is flac on an usb stick, but it also reads mp3/mp4/wma/wav/aiff/ogg/alac/... I never use bluetooth in my car for music, only to couple my phone for phonecalls. The loudspeakers in my car are very medicore altough. But as it's a relative cheap and noisy car, i don't feel the need to upgrade but maybe adding a subwoofer (it does not have it).
And my 2019 Skoda Octavia media system reads all formats i did test, most of my music is flac on an usb stick, but it also reads mp3/mp4/wma/wav/aiff/ogg/alac/... I never use bluetooth in my car for music, only to couple my phone for phonecalls. The loudspeakers in my car are very medicore altough. But as it's a relative cheap and noisy car, i don't feel the need to upgrade but maybe adding a subwoofer (it does not have it).
A car will never ever be an environment to experience audiophile levels of resolution. And if you want to fully immerse yourself in music while driving, I beg you to wait for completely self driving cars, please. Or get an Uber and enjoy with your portable system
Or get an Uber and enjoy with your portable system 
Randyman...
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2023
- Messages
- 77
- Likes
- 64
I guess no one here has ever heard a properly tuned fully-active car? You are missing out, and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But to each your own. Try going to a SQ meet-up and be dazzled with emphasis on imaging/SQ, and the presentation of quality of the source file.
I'd be willing to bet more of the SQ car audio guys have measured and tuned their active systems than lots of "music-philes" here Huge emphasis on being in-phase at all the X-Over points, and creating "up front bass" - not to mention nice looking curves. Many tricks and installation techniques are used to achieve this in a car - and it has sped along at the speed of light the past 4-5 years as high-horsepower DSP's become commonplace. All-Pass filters are commonplace in SQ-oriented installs these days, among the obvious Time-Alignment, asymmetrical X-over slopes as needed, and of course creative EQ (Program EQ, and per-driver EQ).
The amount of work focused on deadening the car is mindboggling for some installs - but even modest improvements in deadening the doors (inner and outer) does wonders.
Stuff like Alpine Status F1, Helix, Brax, Moscone, Morel will knock your socks off. So many great choices for speakers in the mobile arena now, as well. And if you do want bass, the car is the place to experience it like nowhere else unless you are doing quad 24"s or something crazy in your HT.
That is all. Y'all can go back to bashing on car audio w/o ever hearing a properly tuned system - have fun!
I'd be willing to bet more of the SQ car audio guys have measured and tuned their active systems than lots of "music-philes" here
Huge emphasis on being in-phase at all the X-Over points, and creating "up front bass" - not to mention nice looking curves. Many tricks and installation techniques are used to achieve this in a car - and it has sped along at the speed of light the past 4-5 years as high-horsepower DSP's become commonplace. All-Pass filters are commonplace in SQ-oriented installs these days, among the obvious Time-Alignment, asymmetrical X-over slopes as needed, and of course creative EQ (Program EQ, and per-driver EQ).The amount of work focused on deadening the car is mindboggling for some installs - but even modest improvements in deadening the doors (inner and outer) does wonders.
Stuff like Alpine Status F1, Helix, Brax, Moscone, Morel will knock your socks off. So many great choices for speakers in the mobile arena now, as well. And if you do want bass, the car is the place to experience it like nowhere else unless you are doing quad 24"s or something crazy in your HT.
That is all. Y'all can go back to bashing on car audio w/o ever hearing a properly tuned system - have fun!
Last edited:
It's perfectly viable to get great sound in a car if you go custom, and some factory upgraded systems are pretty good too. SNR ratings of amplifiers isn't typically your main worry, since the noise floor is 60-70dB easy in most cars even going at moderate speeds.
Randyman...
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2023
- Messages
- 77
- Likes
- 64
If SNR is the only spec the OP and others are looking at - while proclaiming "difficult to get CD quality sound in a car" - I feel sorry for them. Feel free to read spec sheets and look at the SNR. I'll hop in my ride and put on a smile (for reference - my midbass/mid/high amp is 110 dB A-weighted at full power - but more like 90dB at 1w).
That's NOT the only spec that matters - and one of the few that is fairly un-important in a car (120dB SNR is useless IMO)...
Changing out the factory radio for a higher SNR will do basically nothing. It's about tuning the (upgraded) fully-active system to the car at your listening position(s). A $350 DSP can do that with a factory radio...
That's NOT the only spec that matters - and one of the few that is fairly un-important in a car (120dB SNR is useless IMO)...
Changing out the factory radio for a higher SNR will do basically nothing. It's about tuning the (upgraded) fully-active system to the car at your listening position(s). A $350 DSP can do that with a factory radio...
This speech does not make any sense, it means not considering the context of use in the slightest. The bluetooth is good enough to listen to music from a decent stereo system.
Considering that in the car, on the move, the SNR is probably at best 30db or worse, there is absolutely no point in worrying about the signal to noise ratio of the amplifier or the bluetooth protocol instead of the cable. They are audiophile mental jerks.
In the car, the power and bass extension count to cover as much background noise as possible. No need for high-end home electronics or lossless data transmissions. These are improvements that are absolutely drowned out by orders of magnitude in background noise at best
- Thread Starter
- #29
It depends. LDAC (at 44.1khz/16bit setting)? Sure. FLAC to basic BT codec? Eh. Spotify OGG to basic BT transmission? Nope. Bluetooth down to the bone laziness, especially if your right next to the equipment.
We know all cars have more noise then houses. Tires, Wind Noise, Old plastic squeaking, etc. The issue is that I don't want to spend multi-hundred dollars on amp that has a low SNR like 70db (like Infinity car amps). I have found a Sony amp that almost does CD quality by 3 SNR numbers.
See that's the problem. "'Who cares about quality with you got a ton more noise in a car"". I care because home audio products are evolving at a fast rate while car audio is a at snail pace because "People don't care about quality because more noise in a car". Cars like speakers, can have more isolation and sound dampening even stock ones. Cost is also a factor. I can buy a Topping D10S that goes past CD quality in SNR, but my headunit barely does CD quality for more asking money.
It's not only about changing out the headunit but its about everything in the audio chain. I turned off all the DSP on my headunit and the audio sounds crisp. Would a proper DSP make it sound better? Yes I can admit that. I would rather tune my home setup then my car setup. As a consumer looking for a good headunit, specs and cta-2006 is the only thing I got because no body tests headunits, people only want to test car amps.
Keith_W
Major Contributor
Many years ago I was into both car audio and home audio, so I learnt a bit about the differences between the two. The drivers are physically different because:
- they are mounted in a variety of orientations, e.g. facing up, diagonally, etc. Home audio drivers are almost always mounted vertically. In cars, the drivers also have to tolerate bumps and shocks as the car is moving. This means the suspension has to be more robust, which decreases efficiency.
- related to above, the gap between magnet and VC has to be larger, which decreases BL, which again decreases efficiency. The magnet and voice coil assembly has to be larger and more robust to compensate, which increases cost.
- they have to tolerate a wider variety of environmental conditions
- they have to be made physically smaller, which means less bass extension. So large cone excursion designs are more common.
- speaker enclosures in cars have to be smaller, so the Vas is smaller. Smaller Vas = higher Q and lower efficiency.
Also, car batteries supply 12V so drivers have to be low voltage high current designs, meaning that impedance is usually lower (about 4 Ohms). Home audio drivers are the opposite, they are high voltage low current designs. This means car audio amps have to deliver a lot of current to drive inefficient speakers, and be built into smaller enclosures. Back in the day, we only had Class A/B amps - some of the high current designs then ran into problems with heat dissipation and there were only so many places in the car you could mount them and still dissipate heat efficiently.
In addition to the above, DSP was mandatory if you wanted any hope of success. I had no way of measuring time of flight so I had to measure the distance and calculate time alignment from that. The DSP in my car was rudimentary compared to what I am using now at home, which added to the challenge. DSP's had to be built into the head unit which increased their cost.
- they are mounted in a variety of orientations, e.g. facing up, diagonally, etc. Home audio drivers are almost always mounted vertically. In cars, the drivers also have to tolerate bumps and shocks as the car is moving. This means the suspension has to be more robust, which decreases efficiency.
- related to above, the gap between magnet and VC has to be larger, which decreases BL, which again decreases efficiency. The magnet and voice coil assembly has to be larger and more robust to compensate, which increases cost.
- they have to tolerate a wider variety of environmental conditions
- they have to be made physically smaller, which means less bass extension. So large cone excursion designs are more common.
- speaker enclosures in cars have to be smaller, so the Vas is smaller. Smaller Vas = higher Q and lower efficiency.
Also, car batteries supply 12V so drivers have to be low voltage high current designs, meaning that impedance is usually lower (about 4 Ohms). Home audio drivers are the opposite, they are high voltage low current designs. This means car audio amps have to deliver a lot of current to drive inefficient speakers, and be built into smaller enclosures. Back in the day, we only had Class A/B amps - some of the high current designs then ran into problems with heat dissipation and there were only so many places in the car you could mount them and still dissipate heat efficiently.
In addition to the above, DSP was mandatory if you wanted any hope of success. I had no way of measuring time of flight so I had to measure the distance and calculate time alignment from that. The DSP in my car was rudimentary compared to what I am using now at home, which added to the challenge. DSP's had to be built into the head unit which increased their cost.
Randyman...
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2023
- Messages
- 77
- Likes
- 64
I was referring to an above post talking about swapping the HU and leaving the factory amps/speakers.
When you get a DSP, you generally stream from your Phone (or send SPDIF) directly to the DSP and bypass the factory radio. And of course, a good system will have new amps and speakers - all active with a DSP channel per driver. So basically not using any factory remnants.
And saying "I would rather tune my home setup then my car setup" - have you tuned your home setup? Most "SQ" oriented car installs rely heavily on measuring and tuning. But don't say car audio can't sound good (CD Quality) if you won't even bother tuning the systems "you have a beef with". And everyone posting seems that they haven't even heard a well-tuned "proper" SQ mobile install - but everyone seems to claim they know they can't possibly sound good. Something seems wrong with that stance
OR CARS!
I want to see how ATMOS works in T-Top, Targa Tops, Spiders & whatever else that they call an open top car these days...
I forgot to mention that many I know drive to the lake, roll down the windows, open the top (if it does) and have an outdoor picnic while listening to music from the car for an hour or 2. Many have at least 2 batteries in their car (set up like boat batteries so that they both charge) because something like this is a thing for them.
It's been a thing to me since the 60's, when I was a kid.
I would have never thought that the only time someone listens to a car audio system is when they are driving down the road.
Last edited:
No, I don't remember driving any bench-seat cars, or taking a date to a drive-in movie.
I would have done both: if they only had "CD quality" capable car audio gear, in the hopes to impress my date, as I am swinging my right arm over her head.
That is about the only scenario (=standing still), I can imagine you would need CD-quality audio in a car.
I would have done both: if they only had "CD quality" capable car audio gear, in the hopes to impress my date, as I am swinging my right arm over her head.
That is about the only scenario (=standing still), I can imagine you would need CD-quality audio in a car.
Many people get away from the city light's, & park to stargaze (& whatever else they do with their trucks). Have you noticed that Subaru has upped the ratings of it's cars roofs to hold up to 700 LBs. for the ability to have a car tent?No, I don't remember driving any bench-seat cars, or taking a date to a drive-in movie.
I would have done both: if they only had "CD quality" capable car audio gear, in the hopes to impress my date, as I am swinging my right arm over her head.
That is about the only scenario (=standing still), I can imagine you would need CD-quality audio in a car.
Barrelhouse Solly
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2020
- Messages
- 378
- Likes
- 362
I'm definitely in the road noise as limiting factor camp. In the past the best improvement I got was by replacing speakers. That was in a couple of cars with 4 speakers. I replaced the fronts. In my present car I've started using a TempoTec dongle with the USB out from my phone or my music player. That's noticeable. It may be just the 2v signal. In the past I had a music player with a line level output. That was also a noticeable improvement. I listen to internet radio with Bluetooth. It's good enough although I like the dongle sound a little better.
It seems to me that the most effective thing would be sound insulation. I'm sure that it's at least theoretically possible, although maybe not cheap, to reduce road noise to a level that improves things.
I should mention that while I do listen to classical music and jazz in the car, I also listen to a lot of roots music recorded before WWII and OTR. My SQ requirements are probably not strict as some people's. Accurate reproduction of the sound of worn 78s or AM radio broadcasts isn't demanding.
It seems to me that the most effective thing would be sound insulation. I'm sure that it's at least theoretically possible, although maybe not cheap, to reduce road noise to a level that improves things.
I should mention that while I do listen to classical music and jazz in the car, I also listen to a lot of roots music recorded before WWII and OTR. My SQ requirements are probably not strict as some people's. Accurate reproduction of the sound of worn 78s or AM radio broadcasts isn't demanding.
Some idiot made a left turn in front of me & totaled my wife's 2012 Lexus ES 350 that she had bought new in Guam. 2 years & 3 months before that we had shipped it from Guam to Charleston, SC When it got here (just off the coast of Charleston, James Island SC, it only had 18,000 miles on it. In Guam, the only thing that I REALLY liked about it was the Mark Levinson (yeah, I know, the company, not the man) stereo.
So when it got here, I put KYB Gas-A-Just shocks on it & stiffened up some bushings by replacing them with graphite impregnated polyurethane ones. Then I put the Michelin CrossClimate 2 tires on it & now had something that approximated a ride that I liked without my wife complaining that I went overboard.
I mounted a mini-receiver 2" hitch setup on it, to tow my mothers boat (about 650 LBs & my lawncare things that are about 900LBs. (I take care of my place, about 1/2 an acre & my mothers 3/4 of an acre about 12 miles away).
I was rear ended the next week, no damage to our car, but the damage to theirs was impressive.
But on March 23rd, someone did it in with only 48K miles on it.
& now I seriously miss the damn thing.
Both compressed dynamic range compounded by 'noise' that is not part of SINAD.
But there is nothing that prevents anyone from using current flock of small-size audio gear (SMSL/Topping,etc.) to stuff into a car.
RaspberryPi rigs and/or barebones DIY PCB projects are also an option.
If anything - today - there is a bigger variety of audio hardware for use in cars to choose from.
8-tracks, cassettes, CDs and AM/FMs have been replaced with standard external digital/analog audio inputs.
Easy-peasy!
But there is nothing that prevents anyone from using current flock of small-size audio gear (SMSL/Topping,etc.) to stuff into a car.
RaspberryPi rigs and/or barebones DIY PCB projects are also an option.
If anything - today - there is a bigger variety of audio hardware for use in cars to choose from.
8-tracks, cassettes, CDs and AM/FMs have been replaced with standard external digital/analog audio inputs.
Easy-peasy!
Philbo King
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- May 30, 2022
- Messages
- 669
- Likes
- 877
Our car system (Rav4) is weighted heavily toward bass. Using a cell phone spectrum analyser showed why - the spectrum of the road noise matches the EQ pretty well. This puts everything a bit above the road noise.
I noticed it after giving a listen to a CD I mixed in the car, and was shocked at how bass-heavy it was.
Kinda makes sense, but it means it's not a good place to reference mix quality (unless I go out for a drive, I guess).
I noticed it after giving a listen to a CD I mixed in the car, and was shocked at how bass-heavy it was.
Kinda makes sense, but it means it's not a good place to reference mix quality (unless I go out for a drive, I guess).
If most of the listeners do the most of their listening in commutes/traffics/cars; then, wouldn't make sense to reference a mix quality in that specific environment?
Else, you can put your reference mix in your IEMs and connect some outside MICs feeding your car audio system, at the same time.
You would have to explain to the judge but it makes sense to me.
Similar threads
