Why is it difficult to get CD quality car audio gear?

[ThatM1key]

In the AVR market and Home Audio market, you can easily find and buy almost to complete CD-quality SNR performing products. But in the Car Audio, there's barely any,

With car amps, its either clean output (~85db to ~95db) but "alright" watts or lots of watts with poor noise (~65db to ~75db). Many car amps that claim "95db or more" usually don't even have a CTA-2006 rating. If you look at Infinity car amps, the SNR is always 80db (No CTA-2006 rating) or not even listed at all (Like the Reference 7005A).

Most car speakers are made for power not clarity. There is "Hi-res" car speakers but the Car Audio division is different from the Home Audio division. Like for example, Pioneer. Pioneer made (With the help of Andrew Jones) the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR while I see the car side of them, making garbage like this:

Speaking of radios, I had new Kenwood installed. So many stupid DSP options enabled by default. Sound Recnstr ("Lossy Audio Restoration"), Space Enhance, SND Realizer, Stage EQ, Drive EQ, Speaker Size, Q Factor? (For regular EQ), Loudness, Digital Time Aligement/Car Type. I turned all that DSP junk off and set the EQ flat, and my stock speakers sounded a lot better. Reminds me of 2000s AVRs, when you wanted any DSP, the SNR would go down the shitter.

End of Thread. I wish there was a "Car Audio" Subforum.

 

[GXAlan]

Most car audio is going to used while the car is in motion. In those cases, you don’t really need CD quality transparency and heat becomes a big issue.

The Audiotec Fisher has measurements which are poor from the home audio standpoint but is considered “top class” thanks to its DSP features and center channel remapping.

https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/media/pdf/c0/d8/aa/2018-03-Car-Hifi-Einzeltest-MATCH-UP-7BMW_EN.pdf

The old Clarion era McIntosh car audio gear had great advertised specs and we have seen with EAC’s measurements that McIntosh is conservative with their specifications.

MC420

 

[Blumlein 88]

It does seem some of it would be better. I know at one time I had Nakamichi gear which was up to pretty good standards more than 20 years ago. My guess would be it is mostly down to noise. Even quiet cars are pretty noisy listening environments. So the profit motive lets the fine specs slide and goes all in on fancy displays and all that DSP garbage which they can advertise as a benefit even if nearly no one knows what it does.

 

[robwpdx]

A friend on mine is a car audio leader. You can get very good component - speaker specs in car audio from companies in the recording studio business. You have to tune the specific car at the specific listening position. The systems and installers do that. Remember a vehicle interior has reflecting and absorbing in a specific geometry.

The issue with car audio is the noise floor is high.

The people I know say that ATMOS is going to enter the vehicle space and pull ATMOS to homes.

 

[nerdstrike]

My 2018 car doesn't recognise FLAC format...

In all honesty I think the car segment has aimed and will stay with lowest common denominator, Bluetooth, pathetic drivers, some glitzy tricks, skip the crossover. Aftermarket head units have suffered badly at the hands of integrated and moulded centre consoles and you need to go a long way up the food chain to get a high quality installation from factory.

If you swapped out the head unit on one Mazda I had, the aircon controls stopped working. It's a very locked down market to play in!

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I occasionally see people complaining that they can't get their domestic HiFi to sound as good as their car. This always makes me wonder what their sound preferences are.

 

[voodooless]

I occasionally see people complaining that they can't get their domestic HiFi to sound as good as their car.

We’ve had a guy here on the forum complaining that his Kef R3’s didn’t sound as good as his car audio setup…. Seems like it can go both ways

 

[ThatM1key]

My 2018 car doesn't recognise FLAC format...

Maybe it could do WAV

In all honesty I think the car segment has aimed and will stay with lowest common denominator, Bluetooth, pathetic drivers, some glitzy tricks, skip the crossover.

I know a co-worker that wanted a newer vehicle because of Bluetooth. I told him its easier just to get an older reliable vehicle and replace the oem one with an afte
rmarket one.

My 2018 car doesn't recognise FLAC format...

Aftermarket head units have suffered badly at the hands of integrated and moulded centre consoles and you need to go a long way up the food chain to get a high quality installation from factory.

I always wondered how they put subwoofers in Tesla's and various other screen-reliant vehicles. I knew line-out converters were thing and rarely used but these days you need them. These new line converters are so advanced. Tricking radios into giving out more signals and bass restorers (Because car makers know they put crap speakers in).

With some cars, they put in 8+ speakers and imagine trying to replace the speakers and even the amps. Like for example of the newer escalades have a 36 AKG speaker option. Even with 36 speakers, you only get 1 subwoofer, wtf.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Maybe it could do WAV


I know a co-worker that wanted a newer vehicle because of Bluetooth. I told him its easier just to get an older reliable vehicle and replace the oem one with an afte
rmarket one.

I always wondered how they put subwoofers in Tesla's and various other screen-reliant vehicles. I knew line-out converters were thing and rarely used but these days you need them. These new line converters are so advanced. Tricking radios into giving out more signals and bass restorers (Because car makers know they put crap speakers in).

With some cars, they put in 8+ speakers and imagine trying to replace the speakers and even the amps. Like for example of the newer escalades have a 36 AKG speaker option. Even with 36 speakers, you only get 1 subwoofer, wtf.View attachment 283555

Reminds me of a 1967 Camaro I owned. The prior owner had something like 11 speakers in it. All cheap speakers of various sizes. I asked about it. He told me how all speakers had uneven frequency response, and if they were sized differently he knew they'd have rather different response. So his theory was if you put together 11 speakers in various sizes by law of averages it would even out to pretty good response without spending big money on speakers. The physical evidence was against his theory. I disconnected all that crap and put two okay 6x9s in the hat rack and it was a big, big improvement.

 

[Pancreas]

I occasionally see people complaining that they can't get their domestic HiFi to sound as good as their car. This always makes me wonder what their sound preferences are.

Hip hop garbage and super bass lol

 

[Pancreas]

99% of drivers dont know shit about music

 

[ThatM1key]

99% of drivers dont know shit about music

More like 90%. Most drivers want Bluetooth in there car even though I think its mostly stupid unless its phone calls. I never understood why Bluetooth is used for music in cars. Your literally so close to the radio. I get AUX has a terrible conversion process also but its better then Bluetooth (If you got a decent ADC that is).

If you care about sound quality, at least make a damn attempt. My old JVC can read MP3 CDs, ands that how I rolled. What was I gonna do? Use my LG G8's good DAC (with FLACs) and plug into my late 2000s JVC Aux? (That probably has a half assed ADC). I could carry a bunch of regular CDs with me but cmon, that radio was not even 13-bit.

Reminds me of a 1967 Camaro I owned. The prior owner had something like 11 speakers in it. All cheap speakers of various sizes. I asked about it. He told me how all speakers had uneven frequency response, and if they were sized differently he knew they'd have rather different response. So his theory was if you put together 11 speakers in various sizes by law of averages it would even out to pretty good response without spending big money on speakers. The physical evidence was against his theory. I disconnected all that crap and put two okay 6x9s in the hat rack and it was a big, big improvement.

That owner had a good theory but the laws of sounds bouncing and absorbed got up to him. Maybe another reason is power, and I think it was a bigger factor. 11 speakers hogging for the same power sounds cancerous, especially when all 11 have to reproduce the same signal.

Hip hop garbage and super bass lol

Hip hop is most enjoyable when you got bass that you can hear and feel in a car. However most bone heads that get into hip hop, usually blast it in with there OEM speakers that couldn't go down past 80hz, it just sounds trashy.

 

[Blumlein 88]

That owner had a good theory but the laws of sounds bouncing and absorbed got up to him. Maybe another reason is power, and I think it was a bigger factor. 11 speakers hogging for the same power sounds cancerous, especially when all 11 have to reproduce the same signal.

No the previous owner did know enough to combine the speakers in various series and parallel connections not to overload his 20 watt power booster.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Laughing at all the elitists coming out of the wood work to make ignorant blanket statements of car audio..

 

[GXAlan]

For what it's worth, BMW since iDrive NBT (2012) has supported high-resolution FLAC's off the USB drive even though it's downsampled. In general, I find the BMW factory sound to be very well balanced in that they aren't trying to do more than what the speakers can do. Harman has very different target curves for different customers. Even within a company like Lexus, the LS sedan has always been exceptional with the Mark Levinson setup, while the equally flagship LC coupe sounds as bad as a Subaru for audio.

I did buy the Audiotec Fisher DSP amplifier I linked above. It's a great plug-and-play option for the unbranded BMW Hi-Fi system (where CANBUS isn't used and it's all analog). It's easy to program and besides the EQ options, it has features like RealCenter which is very cool. The BMW speaker drivers themselves aren't great, but the DSP amp takes you from "this sucks" to "this is enjoyable!" especially if you're not trying to go for very high SPLs. The "Focal Inside" approach isn't so simple, with even the center speaker replacement requiring removing the half of the dashboard.

For audio, I find spatial effects are important. I'm not really sure what RealCenter does, though I suspect it's just a fancy version of Dolby Pro-Logic II with a center spread. That said, the Real Center does push the audio to feel more like speakers rather than a diffuse free field headphone.

Their marketing:

RealCenter​

The “RealCenter” feature is an algorithm, developed by Audiotec Fischer, that emphasizes the music information which is present in both the left and right front channel to create an unique center signal. In contrast to common procedures, in which only the channels are summed up, the intensity of the center signal is also dynamically controlled by the stereophonic informational content of the left and right channel.

Sounds complicated but this effect is astonishing: That means if solely the left or right channel delivers an audio signal, the center channel will not reproduce a signal. In the case of common algorithms, the volume level of the center channel is only reduced by 6 dB (= half volume level). Audiotec Fischer’s “RealCenter” allows a unique, broadened sound staging for both driver and co-driver at the same time! Therefore, the disadvantages of a conventional center channel, such as an intrusive, small sound stage, are things of the past.

 

[Paianis]

I occasionally see people complaining that they can't get their domestic HiFi to sound as good as their car. This always makes me wonder what their sound preferences are.

My guess is that car interior spaces are good at avoiding 'room modes' given their shape and the fact there's often carpets and sound-absorbing material everywhere. Not so much with your average living room.

 

[ThatM1key]

No the previous owner did know enough to combine the speakers in various series and parallel connections not to overload his 20 watt power booster.

Man, talk about instant distortion. When you power boosters, you mean those Equalizers that have built in amps? My father told me it was common in the 90s to hook up subs to those boosters.

The BMW speaker drivers themselves aren't great, but the DSP amp takes you from "this sucks" to "this is enjoyable!" especially if you're not trying to go for very high SPLs.

That sounds like Bose Territory.

 

[GXAlan]

That sounds like Bose Territory.

X3 Logic 7 Frequency Response

X3 Logic 7 Frequency Response

x3.xbimmers.com

Not really. It’s pretty good actually. “This sucks” is in comparison to my home speakers not other cars.

The 2/3/4 have one level of speakers and the 5/6/7/8 have a better version of speakers.

Unbranded 2/3/4 < Harman Kardon branded 2/3/4 < Unbranded 5/6/7/8 < Harman Kardon branded 5/6/7/8 < B&W branded 5/6/7/8.

The automotive Bowers and Wilkins products are made by Harman, using some B&W patents for the tweeters.

 

[Head_Unit]

My guess is that car interior spaces are good at avoiding 'room modes' given their shape and the fact there's often carpets and sound-absorbing material everywhere. Not so much with your average living room.

Actually the car is horrible acoustically in that there are a huge number of very early reflections, then the sound just dies. Not an evenly decreasing reverberation like in good studios and listening rooms. The modes...I haven't thought about that in a long time. IIRC the modes are shifted up to more troublesome frequencies.
BUT for many people the car is the primary place for undisturbed listening without anyone b!tching "turn it down!!" You can definitely get very enjoyable sound in a car.

a 36 AKG speaker option. Even with 36 speakers, you only get 1 subwoofer, wtf.

gawd what ridiculous crap. That's another curse and millstone, is the advertising has become obsessed with how many speakers there are...but the "sub"woofers are still like some 6" thing. I've only heard one stock vehicle that had truly pumpable bass, a Nissan Armada with a Rockford Fosgate OEM system with I guess a pretty big sub buried in the large center console.

 

[HoweSound]

I don't agree with the OPs premise. Granted there is a lot of poor quality car audio products out there, but also some good stuff. The stock head unit in my car does not recognize FLAC so I replaced it with a Kenwood - DDX9906XR. It plays most (not aiff) formats including 24/32 bit 96k hires and the specs for a car device are pretty good: It sounds far better than the factory unit even with the stock amp and speakers

DDX9906XR | eXcelon | Car Entertainment | KENWOOD USA

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