Why aren't we bringing the equipment prices down with more published blind test demos?

[Doodski]

Unlike those super cars which are sold at MSRP or higher, the high end audio gear at silly prices probably has some wiggle room.

I retailed audio gear for 9 years and I always gave a special price for packages, amp and speaker combos and even if one component was purchased. Here's how I price structured my sales. The retailer's sales guide for price lists had 3 prices.
-Retail prices.
-Day to day non sale special prices.
-Super sale price.
So I was doing a lot of sales and was building a following of customers by laying down the straight goods about the gear and even walking people that said they would come back with the money for a upsell but they need months. They all came back too to my knowledge. So... I have 3 price options. I sold everything at super sale prices because having a customer come back for price protection due to me selling at different prices to me is embarrassing and I really feel like a wurm (sic). I even got flack because management knew I could do better. Here' my idea on the topic. I am the one talking and walking customers, I have the highest ever recorded profit margin on the home audio department gear in the company of ~700+ people ever and I am in top 10 to 12 % total sales for each month. I made the 2nd highest income in the store home audio department for years because I sold fairly and they came back and brought in friends and family etc. That is representing the customer, the gear and the manufacturers and really respecting the store and everybody's futures.

 

[Roland68]

In my opinion, everything is getting more expensive nowadays without audio discernible improvements and the public isn't doing enough to stop this trend.

I think that for speakers especially there should be more initiative, otherwise even the budget manufacturers will increase the prices up, just as these expensive manufacturers:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/dynaudio-confidence-20-loudspeaker/ - 13000$/pair

Imagine the impact of multiple blind-tests using a 300-500$ bookshelf speakers and some EQ to match the sound of the Dynaudio and not being able to distinguish them or getting a difference that doesn't justify the extra money.

For amplifiers and DACs the blind test comparison should be easier since they're supposed to color the sound less than speakers.

I wonder (and I'm probably not the only one) where are the $300-500 bookshelf speakers that, with some equalizers, can get the sound of the Dynaudio Confidence 20 and you can't tell them apart or get a difference that justifies the extra money.

Then we could organize a corresponding test.

 

[Palladium]

I wonder (and I'm probably not the only one) where are the $300-500 bookshelf speakers that, with some equalizers, can get the sound of the Dynaudio Confidence 20 and you can't tell them apart or get a difference that justifies the extra money.

Then we could organize a corresponding test.

Yeah I'm curious too. Because I find it very hard to imagine anything left in a 2-way bookshelf to optimize by 2024 besides making it active with DSP.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

The question is too generic to have a clear answer. Our choices are not always rational be it in audio or .. life.. Some social scientist would go as far as saying that our choices are seldom "rational".

Now concerning the Dynaudio Confidence 20 speaker.. The only spinorama I have found for it, came from this thread Dynaudio New Confidence 20 Remade with measurement, where a member modified the Confidence 20 with good results... I couldn't find spnorama for the unmodifed one...

Now the measurements from Amir of the JBL LSR 308 speakers, I use these in my system and am pleased and I would think that the 308 have better those FR and directivity measurements:

Not saying that the LSR 308 are superior.. Although it could been said they have better response. OTOH, the Confidence-20 THD is much better ... However, you have a case of a speaker (JBL LSR 308) that seems to do a lot of things better than, another (Confidence-20) costing 20 times as much ... There is a disconnect .. there... One could pay $3000 for a custom furniture grade cabinet to bring the LSR 308, ( not my money so I can play with it) and, have$6000 for subwoofer, ancillary equipment a nice listening chair and .. Ice Cream..

And that is the value ASR brings on the table for those who care. Many people, now, know, have been proven that the emperor has no cloth and that for that amount, better get a Genelec 8361, or Neuman KH 420 or a pair of Dutch and Dutch 8C.. or ... or .... We now know.. Most people don't .. The number of those who know, is fortunately increasing. Will it result in lowering prices? No! This is a hobby, a (small) niche : Too few people care enough for these to matter.


Peace.

 

[Petrushka]

I wonder (and I'm probably not the only one) where are the $300-500 bookshelf speakers that, with some equalizers, can get the sound of the Dynaudio Confidence 20 and you can't tell them apart or get a difference that justifies the extra money.

Then we could organize a corresponding test.

Speakers are far too different from each other to do a double blind vanilla/chocolate test.

Not to mention, differences added by the room.

But, if you tried $2000 vs $13000, and did a preference test, I bet the results would not be unanimous.

 

[rank]

Yes, manufacturing in Asia is a pushback for some luxury products.
Regarding the audio, I remember that an adventurous reseller or looking for free publicity, had launched a "match". Between his system made only with British hifi (because Linn is Scottish, he abandoned this brand shortly thereafter) and what me and two of my friends decide to bring. So two pairs of speakers (Elipson and DIY), a Thorens 166 (original tonearm and Stanton cartridge) and a $200 Philips CD player (my wife's) made the trip.
Well, there was no play eh against his Naim speakers and Linn (Kan it seemed to me), the LP 12 (albeit an almost religious experience according to him), a Naim CD player too with separate power supply (the Philips won, the Naim having no bass at all). The cheaper equipment was at least equal (I'm being nice, the attacks of our 2 speakers on all the sounds played ridiculed theirs, but maybe some like this softness, tastes and colors are personal eh).
And therefore, given the immense difference in costs, was clearly the winner.

 

[gwing]

Yeah I'm curious too. Because I find it very hard to imagine anything left in a 2-way bookshelf to optimize by 2024 besides making it active with DSP.

The drive units?

 

[Petrushka]

Hi

The question is too generic to have a clear answer. Our choices are not always rational be it in audio or .. life.. Some social scientist would go as far as saying that our choices are seldom "rational".

Now concerning the Dynaudio Confidence 20 speaker.. The only spinorama I have found for it, came from this thread Dynaudio New Confidence 20 Remade with measurement, where a member modified the Confidence 20 with good results... I couldn't find spnorama for the unmodifed one...
View attachment 382731
Now the measurements from Amir of the JBL LSR 308 speakers, I use these in my system and am pleased and I would think that the 308 have better those FR and directivity measurements:
View attachment 382732

Not saying that the LSR 308 are superior.. Although it could been said they have better response. THD of the Confidence-20 is much better ... However, you have a case of a speaker that seems to do a lot of things better than, another costing almost 20 times as much ... There is a disconnect .. there... One could pay $300 for a custom furniture grade cabinet to bring the LSR 308 to ( not my money so I can play with it) and have$6000 for subwoofer, ancillary equipment and .. Ice Cream..

And that is the value for those who cares, that ASR brings on the table. Several people now know, have been proven that the emperor has no cloth .. that for that amount better get a Genelec 8361 or a Neuman KH 420 or a pair of Dutch and Dutch 8C.. or ... or .... We now know.. Most people don't .. The number of those who know, is fortunately increasing. Will it result in lowering prices? No! This is a hobby, a (small) niche : Too few people care enough for these to matter.


Peace.

Near field listening is shockingly seductive, even when the speakers don’t measure as world class.

It’s more difficult to make speakers that fill a large room and sound good in all parts of the room.

 

[EJ3]

Yeah I'm curious too. Because I find it very hard to imagine anything left in a 2-way bookshelf to optimize by 2024 besides making it active with DSP.

Usually aesthetics matter more than sound in that price category, in my experience.
Unless you are single and do not have a significant other, it is unlikely that you are making the sole decision on this.
Because this system will NOT likely be in a dedicated room that your significant other can make sure that others don't see.
And if you are actively looking for a significant other, a stereo system that sounds great to you but does not have "curb appeal" (as they say about ones yard) to them:
Can be a deal breaker for them to be with you.
Like it or not, there are hidden priorities more times than not.

 

[DearSX]

Yeah I'm curious too. Because I find it very hard to imagine anything left in a 2-way bookshelf to optimize by 2024 besides making it active with DSP.

I think something like the AA Sierra LX at $1500 or Revel M106 or M126Be would be the ASR response to the Dynaudio speaker, different sound though, ASR is usually looking for a Flat Frequency response, and Dynaudio to change that up a little bit.

 

[JeffS7444]

I wonder (and I'm probably not the only one) where are the $300-500 bookshelf speakers that, with some equalizers, can get the sound of the Dynaudio Confidence 20 and you can't tell them apart or get a difference that justifies the extra money.

Not so simple, as speakers have a multitude of frequency responses which vary depending on your listening position.

 

[JeffS7444]

Between his system made only with British hifi (because Linn is Scottish, he abandoned this brand shortly thereafter)

Is Scotland no longer part of Great Britain?

 

[JeffS7444]

I don't think speakers can be considered luxury brands.

Although not sold by the likes of LVMH, I'd say that brands like McIntosh, Mark Levinson, Nagra, Linn, Accuphase, Wilson Audio, MBL and others, have most certainly positioned themselves as such. But whether those brands are as recognizable by the general public compared with Rolex, Lamborghini or Chanel is another matter! But being lesser-known can have it's own cachet, in the sense of "If you know, you know".

 

[Roland68]

Not so simple, as speakers have a multitude of frequency responses which vary depending on your listening position.

Actually, it's just that simple.
Each speaker is individually and optimally aligned to the listening position and listened to on the same electronics.
The test subjects independently judge which speaker they like best.

We've done this over 100 times in speaker comparisons and it's never been a problem.
What you describe has no effect on this, because if you're looking for a few new speakers and listen to some at home or at the dealer, you wouldn't do it any differently.

 

[Mart68]

Yes, manufacturing in Asia is a pushback for some luxury products.
Regarding the audio, I remember that an adventurous reseller or looking for free publicity, had launched a "match". Between his system made only with British hifi (because Linn is Scottish, he abandoned this brand shortly thereafter) and what me and two of my friends decide to bring. So two pairs of speakers (Elipson and DIY), a Thorens 166 (original tonearm and Stanton cartridge) and a $200 Philips CD player (my wife's) made the trip.
Well, there was no play eh against his Naim speakers and Linn (Kan it seemed to me), the LP 12 (albeit an almost religious experience according to him), a Naim CD player too with separate power supply (the Philips won, the Naim having no bass at all). The cheaper equipment was at least equal (I'm being nice, the attacks of our 2 speakers on all the sounds played ridiculed theirs, but maybe some like this softness, tastes and colors are personal eh).
And therefore, given the immense difference in costs, was clearly the winner.

Linn Kans were rubbish though, you've got to take that into account...

 

[robh36062]

Not saying that the LSR 308 are superior.. Although it could been said they have better response. OTOH, the Confidence-20 THD is much better ... However, you have a case of a speaker (JBL LSR 308) that seems to do a lot of things better than, another (Confidence-20) costing 20 times as much ... There is a disconnect .. there... One could pay $3000 for a custom furniture grade cabinet to bring the LSR 308, ( not my money so I can play with it) and, have$6000 for subwoofer, ancillary equipment a nice listening chair and .. Ice Cream..

Hello

I have mine set up so I can level match and do instantaneous A/B and it's an eye opener how good they are. I run mine with a sub using an active crossover. You can get a lot of bang for your buck no doubt! With the added sub I can listen to them all day! That said there is a difference with their bigger brothers and it's the expected ones WRT larger more capable drivers.

Rob

 

[kemmler3D]

if you tried $2000 vs $13000, and did a preference test, I bet the results would not be unanimous.

If you wanted to, you could probably set up a test where the $2000 speaker won 9/10 on preference, just because price/performance is so "noisy" beyond a very low price point.

 

[GXAlan]

Although not sold by the likes of LVMH, I'd say that brands like McIntosh, Mark Levinson, Nagra, Linn, Accuphase, Wilson Audio, MBL and others, have most certainly positioned themselves as such. But whether those brands are as recognizable by the general public compared with Rolex, Lamborghini or Chanel is another matter! But being lesser-known can have it's own cachet, in the sense of "If you know, you know".

Most people don’t know a Rimac, but if they saw it, they would know it’s an expensive car.

I think MBL, Wilson, and McIntosh fall into that category. You know it’s not a regular speaker or electronic when you see it.

Linn, less so — they are beautiful but B&O is more beautiful and the modern look might make people think it’s Apple-like which is a 1-2k price point.

Accuphase, less so — they are beautiful but are too reserved, like a fancy Seiko Credor Eichi II watch, which is over $50K, but you really have to be a connoisseur to know what it is.

Nagra, less so. I think it’s sort of incredible that they have a HiFi division and a Security division… though Canon made speakers too.

 

[Petrushka]

If you wanted to, you could probably set up a test where the $2000 speaker won 9/10 on preference, just because price/performance is so "noisy" beyond a very low price point.

Make the cheaper speaker 2 dB louder, or elevate the treble slightly.

 

[JeffS7444]

they are beautiful but are too reserved

But being recognizable only by a select audience can be a huge part of the cachet!