Why aren't we bringing the equipment prices down with more published blind test demos?

[kemmler3D]

Make the cheaper speaker 2 dB louder, or elevate the treble slightly.

I mean, even in a fair test, you could find an overpriced $13K speaker that just doesn't sound as good as an LS50 Meta, or something along those lines.

 

[Barney O'Hara]

"Ten times better" is a subjective judgment - for some people they are 100 times better, another person may find them 25% better at best.


Frankly this statement is as uncritically misanthropic as it is ignorant...

Don't blame me if, while you're stealing from the poor and giving to yourself, you forgot to at least put on steel toed shoes.

 

[kemmler3D]

Don't blame me if, while you're stealing from the poor and giving to yourself, you forgot to at least put on steel toed shoes.

Actual poor people don't buy stereo equipment beyond the bare minimum, at all.

The margins on a lot of those devices are so low that I have often speculated they're negative and the product is simply a means to move money out of China into the US at a moderate cost. In the case of cheap Amazon Echo devices, the margins are known to be negative and I would argue are so far below cost as to be criminal. Predatory pricing is supposed to be illegal, after all.

Please - take your own voice and worth as a commenter seriously enough to learn SOMETHING before speaking on a topic. The consumer audio industry is so far from stealing from the poor that it would not be totally crazy to characterize it as a form of charity on the part of Chinese money exfiltrators.

 

[Sokel]

In the grand scheme of things good audio performance is maybe cheaper on speakers but they don't get to perform the same tasks as the older ones.
And this grand scheme is considerably smaller rooms/houses,higher chances of quality power amplification with enough power,etc.

So they can get away getting smaller,more inefficient,etc.

And price is directly tied to size (and I mean size,mains monitor grade size)

Weirdo edit: Have you noticed how some cheap stuff smell?

 

[AdamG]

Let’s dial down the personal stuff. Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

 

[lowkeyoperations]

The OP makes no sense to me.

It argues that we need more blind tests between a $13,000 speaker and a $500 pair with EQ to bring prices of speakers down.

But it overlooks the fact that a perfectly affordable $500 pair of speakers is already available.

The price of hifi has already come down to the point of being very affordable due to manufacturing costs in countries with lower wages and decades of collective R&D.

Theres no evidence to claim blind listening tests brought prices down.

The fact that there are manufacturers selling to people of varying levels of income is the reason we see various levels of pricing. Not the lack of blind listening tests.

 

[Robin L]

The folks that consider DBTs important are not the sort of people that buy $300,000.00 turntables.

 

[Littletycoon]

A few points on this, the last one is the most important...

1. We are manufacturers ourselves in Germany and in the last 5 years our production costs, excluding employees, have increased by at least 30-50%, in some cases even by 80%. The purchase prices for finished products that we buy have even tripled.
And this is the case in almost all areas worldwide.

2. Don't take the following personally, this actually applies to most end users.
You have no idea how sales prices are made up and how they are calculated by the manufacturer. Are you aware that the manufacturer only gets a maximum of 25-40% of its products that are sold through retailers (including online and Amazon)?

3. Are you also aware that with the purchase price you are not only paying for the device, components and manufacturing costs, but also development costs, measuring device costs, building costs, sales costs, employees, etc. The development costs in particular are in the 5-6 digit range and must also be covered by the 25-40%.
Or are you not paid for your work? I am still looking for employees who will work for free.

4. Every manufacturer has the right to price their devices, speakers, etc. as they see fit, and that is none of the buyer's business.
The buyer has the right to decide for themselves whether the product is worth the price. If not, buy something else, nobody is forcing you to do anything.
And there are not only measured values or ratings after blind tests, but much more, such as materials, value, surface quality, component quality, reputation, status symbol, quality, durability, repairability (even after years or decades), service, maintenance and expansion of firmware, etc.
All costs must also always be divided by the number of units, which makes small quantities and niche products very expensive.
All things that you can pay for, or not.

5. These blind tests were already carried out 20-30 years ago, and they achieved nothing except that even more expensive products were sold. In the 90s and early 2000s there were countless listening sessions and blind tests by retailers and manufacturers. I once went to 6 of these events within a month and it took place at least 10 times throughout the day. Always with 15-30 people.
Real and usable blind tests are much more difficult, complex and costly than you imagine. Especially if you want to be as unassailable as possible.
And the results will often not be what you want.

6. But the most important point is that such low prices, or prices that are too low, lead to the problems that we now have with many manufacturers. And buyers who buy at such low prices don't need to complain about it.
Unfinished devices, hardware and firmware, no detailed tests, no long-term tests, only optimized on the AP to shine with good measured values. The result is always shown in failed devices, firmware problems, hardware problems, strange behavior, unfinished devices, etc.
But most of these cheap developments were also created on the fly (1-2 months after the release of new DAC chips, the first top devices are available), far from being mature, far from being fully developed.
Tests? Long-term tests? Quality controls? But you don't want to pay for that.
Oh yes, and a large proportion of the devices come from the standard layouts and white papers of the chip manufacturers with little development effort. No real innovations, no real or individual developments, only standard designs optimized on the AP for measured values.

With customers like these, it doesn't surprise me at all that many good manufacturers are pulling out or moving their products into a more expensive luxury segment, like Linn, for example.
Because when one of these cheap manufacturers released one of the best DACs tested here in the forum for €/$900 around 3 years ago, with many of its own developments and certainly high development costs, the manufacturer was attacked for the price.
It seems that most buyers work voluntarily and don't want to be paid for their work. Please contact me, we have enough work.

High prices sell low quantities. Low quantities keep processes (quality, r&d, production, whatever) less efficient and one off cost a high percentage of cost.

I'd want to consider ggntkt speakers, but they are out of reach financially.

 

[EJ3]

High prices sell low quantities. Low quantities keep processes (quality, r&d, production, whatever) less efficient and one off cost a high percentage of cost.

I'd want to consider ggntkt speakers, but they are out of reach financially.

Research much?

 

[PJ 1]

I'm guessing you are younger than me (55) because quality audio seems cheaper than ever.

I chuckled when I read that and thought the same thing as you. I'm turning 50 this year and can't BELIEVE the options out there today for not much money. Oh sure, there are esoteric products that command a hefty price and inflation combined with increasing costs of living are certainly "newsy", but I also never thought I'd see minimum wage at $20-25/hour in some areas or so many 20-30 year-olds making over $10K/month selling underwear pics on OnlyFans. It's also never been easier to research component pricing and in my opinion, believe hobbyists (me included) will look at the "sum of its parts" and determine a cost. Often without consideration to overhead, profits, R&D, shipping, warranty service etc. But I empathize with the OP and will join in and shout at clouds with everyone else!

 

[Verig]

I do wonder what happens when people audition speakers in a showroom, then take them home.

That's why I don't buy anything (that I consider expensive for me) without home trial. If the showroom is familiar to me there has been no surprises but still.

 

[PJ 1]

I'm 67 and "quality audio" is the biggest scam since the introduction of taxes.

Good day Barney. You opinion has been heard. However, I'd offer that this is a hobby for enjoyment and don't want to hijack the thread arguing over taxes. (I could offer it's probably not taxes your opposed to as everyone in our generation feels strongly about paying our way, but it's the allocation of our taxes that upsets many.) I know that you have heard "quality audio" and can EASILY distinguish it from NOT "quality audio" so perhaps we focus on less subjective aspects of the hobby and maybe debate the differences in driver design and how it correlates to measured performance and at what price. My $.02 anyway.

 

[Verig]

$1300 vs $13k is not ten times better, mostly it's so much better there is no meaningful comparison.
You can have very nice stand mount speakers for $1300 but then you won't have any bass or scale, SPL. No, bookshelf extension to 40Hz is not "bass", it has no power at all. For quiet listening and certain taste it's just fine but there is absolutely no comparison to what you get for the money. Also, you can't EQ your way out of everything. It will help but can't correct all faults no matter how straight the FR measurement is after it.

Finding the cheapest gear that meets your requirements is one way of doing things. That's fine. But many people want more, be it performance or looks, or both.

 

[PJ 1]

A few points on this, the last one is the most important...

1. We are manufacturers ourselves in Germany and in the last 5 years our production costs, excluding employees, have increased by at least 30-50%, in some cases even by 80%. The purchase prices for finished products that we buy have even tripled.
And this is the case in almost all areas worldwide.

2. Don't take the following personally, this actually applies to most end users.
You have no idea how sales prices are made up and how they are calculated by the manufacturer. Are you aware that the manufacturer only gets a maximum of 25-40% of its products that are sold through retailers (including online and Amazon)?

3. Are you also aware that with the purchase price you are not only paying for the device, components and manufacturing costs, but also development costs, measuring device costs, building costs, sales costs, employees, etc. The development costs in particular are in the 5-6 digit range and must also be covered by the 25-40%.
Or are you not paid for your work? I am still looking for employees who will work for free.

4. Every manufacturer has the right to price their devices, speakers, etc. as they see fit, and that is none of the buyer's business.
The buyer has the right to decide for themselves whether the product is worth the price. If not, buy something else, nobody is forcing you to do anything.
And there are not only measured values or ratings after blind tests, but much more, such as materials, value, surface quality, component quality, reputation, status symbol, quality, durability, repairability (even after years or decades), service, maintenance and expansion of firmware, etc.
All costs must also always be divided by the number of units, which makes small quantities and niche products very expensive.
All things that you can pay for, or not.

5. These blind tests were already carried out 20-30 years ago, and they achieved nothing except that even more expensive products were sold. In the 90s and early 2000s there were countless listening sessions and blind tests by retailers and manufacturers. I once went to 6 of these events within a month and it took place at least 10 times throughout the day. Always with 15-30 people.
Real and usable blind tests are much more difficult, complex and costly than you imagine. Especially if you want to be as unassailable as possible.
And the results will often not be what you want.

6. But the most important point is that such low prices, or prices that are too low, lead to the problems that we now have with many manufacturers. And buyers who buy at such low prices don't need to complain about it.
Unfinished devices, hardware and firmware, no detailed tests, no long-term tests, only optimized on the AP to shine with good measured values. The result is always shown in failed devices, firmware problems, hardware problems, strange behavior, unfinished devices, etc.
But most of these cheap developments were also created on the fly (1-2 months after the release of new DAC chips, the first top devices are available), far from being mature, far from being fully developed.
Tests? Long-term tests? Quality controls? But you don't want to pay for that.
Oh yes, and a large proportion of the devices come from the standard layouts and white papers of the chip manufacturers with little development effort. No real innovations, no real or individual developments, only standard designs optimized on the AP for measured values.

With customers like these, it doesn't surprise me at all that many good manufacturers are pulling out or moving their products into a more expensive luxury segment, like Linn, for example.
Because when one of these cheap manufacturers released one of the best DACs tested here in the forum for €/$900 around 3 years ago, with many of its own developments and certainly high development costs, the manufacturer was attacked for the price.
It seems that most buyers work voluntarily and don't want to be paid for their work. Please contact me, we have enough work.

Well said. Unfortunately, there is a huge shift in beliefs between generations. Boomers, generation X are much more aligned and share nearly the same opinions over capitalism. Generation Y/Millennials and those born after now reaching adulthood, seemingly have a distain for capitalism and feel NOTHING that came before them matters/was "done right" or done for pure greed. The OP completely disregards the experiences provided by the generations that were here for DBT from years past. No amount of information or data will sway him. I just retired from the Navy after 23 years and entered the civilian industry at 50. I'm fortunate and was recruited by many employers. Not for my knowledge and experience in any one field, but because I can show up TO THE BUILDING on time and work a FULL DAY, I appreciate that I'm paid to do a GOOD job, not a bad one, and understand I'm employed by someone to either SAVE them money OR MAKE them money. Free is worth what you pay for it. My $.02. (Let the arrows fly - I'm Navy, lost my "feels" years ago...)

 

[tmtomh]

$1300 vs $13k is not ten times better, mostly it's so much better there is no meaningful comparison.
You can have very nice stand mount speakers for $1300 but then you won't have any bass or scale, SPL. No, bookshelf extension to 40Hz is not "bass", it has no power at all. For quiet listening and certain taste it's just fine but there is absolutely no comparison to what you get for the money. Also, you can't EQ your way out of everything. It will help but can't correct all faults no matter how straight the FR measurement is after it.

Finding the cheapest gear that meets your requirements is one way of doing things. That's fine. But many people want more, be it performance or looks, or both.

It seems to me that you're begging the question here. The entire point is that one person's "10x better" is another person's "so much better there is no meaningful comparison," which is another person's "2x better."

 

[Petrushka]

I found a couple decades ago that being impressed by spl was sign my hearing was going. Also, a cause.

 

[Palladium]

I found a couple decades ago that being impressed by spl was sign my hearing was going. Also, a cause.

Amps are easy for me to pick because I find 60dB to be already pretty loud.

 

[Verig]

It seems to me that you're begging the question here. The entire point is that one person's "10x better" is another person's "so much better there is no meaningful comparison," which is another person's "2x better."

Yeah, mostly I'm just slightly annoyed by posts that make a premise that everything is wrong with expensive products, companies and designers should sell everything close to BOM (because... why?) and that people should have it all by eq'ing some ugly cheap as possible boxes. And to think that going aggressively public with measurements would change people's mind completely like everyone is a blind moron just waiting to tell them the truth. Interesting hubris and complete disregard of designers lifes work, aesthetics, needs for different systems and lacking in basic business sense.
I'll get my coat.

 

[Verig]

I found a couple decades ago that being impressed by spl was sign my hearing was going. Also, a cause.

I meant bass SPL. Even though a small speaker may extend to 40Hz it doesn't sound or feel right. And as I said, this type of listening may be desirable, I like it too sometimes, but it's not very complete or something I'd want all the time. Way off the target.

 

[Mart68]

W. I just retired from the Navy after 23 years and entered the civilian industry at 50. I'm fortunate and was recruited by many employers. Not for my knowledge and experience in any one field, but because I can show up TO THE BUILDING on time and work a FULL DAY,

Have to agree this does now seem to be a bar that many of the youngsters fail to reach.