Why aren't we bringing the equipment prices down with more published blind test demos?

[tmtomh]

Yeah, mostly I'm just slightly annoyed by posts that make a premise that everything is wrong with expensive products, companies and designers should sell everything close to BOM (because... why?) and that people should have it all by eq'ing some ugly cheap as possible boxes. And to think that going aggressively public with measurements would change people's mind completely like everyone is a blind moron just waiting to tell them the truth. Interesting hubris and complete disregard of designers lifes work, aesthetics, needs for different systems and lacking in basic business sense.
I'll get my coat.

No need to get your coat IMHO. Everything you say here makes sense, and to me it’s a more straightforward and internally consistent statement of the issue that motivated your prior comment.

 

[Doodski]

I just retired from the Navy after 23 years and entered the civilian industry at 50. I'm fortunate and was recruited by many employers. Not for my knowledge and experience in any one field, but because I can show up TO THE BUILDING on time and work a FULL DAY,

When I was in sales it was difficult to find people that would show up to work with ironed clothing, well rested, not drunk in the morning and actually wanted to help. Very high turnover rate and the strange thing was me and a couple of other guys where the long term employees and we where making lotsa money but the newbies did not want to work for the money.

 

[EJ3]

because I can show up TO THE BUILDING on time and work a FULL DAY

If you can't make it through the above part:

, I appreciate that I'm paid to do a GOOD job, not a bad one

then you'll never get to learning to understand the above and below parts

, and understand I'm employed by someone to either SAVE them money OR MAKE them money.

Meaning that you will have to accept the below part

Free is worth what you pay for it.

And be a slave to the government for it.
Also:

My $.02. (Let the arrows fly - I'm Navy, lost my "feels" years ago...)

18 years various military (DoD). Prior to that, Plumbing, Heating & AC Corp owner (still), during DoD: Karaoke Club(Owner), Oil Distribution Company (Owner, still), Therapeutic Massage Business (Owner), involuntarily mostly retired (but still trying to work hard & getting better at it) due to someone's driving, making a left turn in front of me & me hitting them at 45 MPH.

 

[AdamG]

Can we try a little harder to stay on topic and not drift all over the place.

Please try. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[EJ3]

Can we try a little harder to stay on topic and not drift all over the place.

Please try. Thank you for your cooperation.

Sorry, it's very early in the thread to be going on tangents. We'll (well at least I will) wait it out a few more pages before responding to such tangents.
Early thread subject departure: It's a pet peeve of mine & here I am doing it.
Sorry, Folks!

 

[dguillor]

Not from the well known brands. These are increasing the prices.
I know that chinese are coming with lower prices and flawless performance, but the whole product is not flawless and even they realize that they can increase the price to maximize the profit instead of competing to sell at lowest possible price.

For example, I have a SMSL DAC, flawless audio, not even the slightest hiss, but it heats up like crazy, I'm afraid that one day it could catch fire. Also, if I keep a mobile phone next to it, I get interference. Also whenever the audio signal from the computer stops or starts, I hear a slight pop/crack sound, and I cannot do anything from the driver. They should have mitigated this somehow.

I think that there’s a level in between top brands and the bottom brands that provides outstanding value. Audiophonics amps with Hypex or Purifi modules comes to mind. Some very inexpensive gear has flawless performance. Like the Wiim Ultra. And the Wiim mini and Pro are better than most of us can Hear for a very small amount of money. The advances in those are due to advances in semiconductor technology and electrical engineering. Speakers are a different story. Lots of the cost in in the construction of the cabinet, mainly the cost of materials.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Maybe I should start a new youtube channel. The Blind Audiophile. You know you can trust the Blind Audiophile because all my tests are blind. So is my assistant who does the switching. That makes it Double Blind.

 

[test1223]

Yeah, mostly I'm just slightly annoyed by posts that make a premise that everything is wrong with expensive products, companies and designers should sell everything close to BOM (because... why?) and that people should have it all by eq'ing some ugly cheap as possible boxes. And to think that going aggressively public with measurements would change people's mind completely like everyone is a blind moron just waiting to tell them the truth. Interesting hubris and complete disregard of designers lifes work, aesthetics, needs for different systems and lacking in basic business sense.
I'll get my coat.

The irony here is the following: the same people who feel robbed by a product which is not cheap buy happily products from Apple or use services like Airbnb. These companies take a big chunk of the money as profit and have a very big marketing budget. But most people don't mind, while at the same time they won't spent any extra penny for other products and services.

Loudspeakers especially bigger ones aren't a mass market product any more and therefore we as costumers can't get the less expensive mass market prices for bigger speakers. And with bigger I am referring to speakers bigger than a shoe box here.

The audio industry need a lot more marketing effort, since there are a lot of potential buyers out there. Music and listening to music is as popular as it was several decades ago. Playing video games and watching movies at home is also very popular. Many of those would enjoy better sound.

The audio industry as a whole failed to explain, offer and sell them good products. Online shopping takes away the live experience of trying out a product at the store and see for yourself what is better. So a lot of people don't know or better worded haven't first hand experienced that there is much better sound.

The audio industry failed to put better sound into a meaningful technical number. Rather the opposite, none sense technically numbers where pushed a long time ago. That these numbers like Watt where rigged and meaningless has been realized by the mainstream, which lead to a general scepticism.

I think the importance of a single meaningful technical number which at least roughly correlates to better sound isn't even seen by the audio companies.

Like with many other technical products the costumer doesn't know what makes the better product better. In the stores the sales people know some details but they are in a position with a conflict of interest. And selling something at a store gets eaten by selling it online.

A single or some meaningful technical number can help out here. Like processing power or better screen resolution helped to sells better phones. With such a number a lot of people feel confident enough to buy something without first hand experience of the device. This is very important for online shopping.

So the audio industry as a whole needs to step up the game by a lot. Especially in terms of marketing and bringing the experience of good sound to more people. This thread is another small example of evidence for this thesis.

 

[PJ 1]

Can we try a little harder to stay on topic and not drift all over the place.

Please try. Thank you for your cooperation.

I apologize for some of the drifting. I have a difficult time with the OP assuming that DBT hasn't been done and the argument that more expensive anything is just that: more expensive. Far too many criticize manufacturers on ASR over "value" which is so subjective. Every reader on ASR has the ability to buy OR not buy based on whatever metric they VALUE. However, to constantly complain that product X should be cheaper because of parts composition or origin of manufacture only reinforces the stereotype that ASR readers care only about SINAD or $100 DACs.

 

[kemmler3D]

When I was in sales it was difficult to find people that would show up to work with ironed clothing, well rested, not drunk in the morning and actually wanted to help.

Well, that's sales for you. Marketing folk never give you a moment of doubt with their habit or decorum.

 

[Palladium]

...
So the audio industry as a whole needs to step up the game by a lot. Especially in terms of marketing and bringing the experience of good sound to more people. This thread is another small example of evidence for this thesis.

Traditional hifi can't and they won't without committing $$$ suicide which is why they will stick to mystical woo-woo. But you already know this.

 

[Littletycoon]

However, to constantly complain that product X should be cheaper because of parts composition or origin of manufacture only reinforces the stereotype that ASR readers care only about SINAD or $100 DACs.

That's an expression of desire for a good price/quality ratio.

 

[TurtlePaul]

That's an expression of desire for a good price/quality ratio.

Sure, I get the price/performance people. But they shouldn’t begrudge people willing to pay more for better (regardless of ratio).

There is an audio discussion and a price discussion. It is possible for those two discussion to be separate topics.

If OP was “why aren’t measurements and blind test making audio better?” then the answer would be that they are having a huge impact.

 

[EJ3]

Sure, I get the price/performance people. But they shouldn’t begrudge people willing to pay more for better (regardless of ratio).

There is an audio discussion and a price discussion. It is possible for those two discussion to be separate topics.

If OP was “why aren’t measurements and blind test making audio better?” then the answer would be that they are having a huge impact.

Once you have the quality in place, then it's 'do you care how it looks, does it's form factor fit in with your gear, etc.
Some people just want it to sound good, fit in with their gear and look great while doing it. And are happy to pay for those things.
And, it seems, that many are happy to pay for those, even if it does not measure well.
But, that is a choice that they are allowed to make.
Whether we like it or not.

 

[Verig]

It's pretty wild how badly measuring gear may sound good or be even preferred.

There's a 300B tube amp tested here which has sinad of about 30. Not to mention complex reaction to speaker load (or normal SET reaction to complex load... but anyway). Matched with right speakers it sounds great. And it costs way more than a properly measuring amp, not to mention the absolutely bonkers power draw. Extreme example but it's good to remember that objectively better does not always turn directly into preference.

That's an expression of desire for a good price/quality ratio.

It can be but it goes sometimes overboard. I've noticed ASR has very bad reputation in certain places. Talking about snake oil cables etc. is fine but directly offending people who buy expensive hifi does not go down too well. I've had to explain to multiple people why they should even consider clicking a link to this forum. Yes, I'm being serious. This is a very good forum and many posts are amazing but from social perspective there's some work.

 

[Purité Audio]

If you have paid a great deal of money for a component and you read that it doesn’t offer any sonic improvement you are bound to be vexed.
Their anger should be directed at the manufacturer for selling them an expensive crock but of course it never is.
Keith

 

[EJ3]

If you have paid a great deal of money for a component and you read that it doesn’t offer any sonic improvement you are bound to be vexed.
Their anger should be directed at the manufacturer for selling them an expensive crock but of course it never is.
Keith

They can't be bothered to read about trivial stuff like that. It's not fashionable!

 

[hvbias]

Price I paid for JBL LSR 305 MK2 brand new. No one should be complaining about hifi being too expensive.

Or really complaining about anything that is unnecessary being too expensive. When I was a sophomore in high school and realized I wanted to live a good life and thought "hey I should probably not be ok with Bs anc Cs and try and actually make something of myself" which ended up sacrificing my 20s to be able to afford all sorts of good stuff. People don't actually want to put in the work these days, it's manifestation BS (greatest scam of the 21st century) and entitlement.

 

[Mr. Widget]

If you have paid a great deal of money for a component and you read that it doesn’t offer any sonic improvement you are bound to be vexed.

For some sure, but most people do not expect designer eyewear to help them see better than standard frames, and Rolex buyers don't believe their watches are more accurate than a watch with a much less expensive quartz movement. People buy expensive cars and other luxury goods for many reasons.

The common explanation is that they want to show off and for many that is probably true, but many folks simply like really well made goods. A Bryston amp will cost you much more than a number of lower cost alternatives, but it is nicely housed, well built, and comes with a 20 year warranty. Does it need to sound better than another good quality amp to justify its price, not for everyone.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Price I paid for JBL LSR 305 MK2 brand new. No one should be complaining about hifi being too expensive.

No argument there... they are a bargain even at full retail.
We've had a pair of the original LSR305s in my wife's home office for years and they still impress me.

But they are not the solution if you have a large room, enjoy high SPLs, or listen to a lot of music with VLF content. There is a reason JBL and others also make much larger and more costly speakers.