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Why aren't we bringing the equipment prices down with more published blind test demos?

asteroth

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Aug 13, 2022
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In my opinion, everything is getting more expensive nowadays without audio discernible improvements and the public isn't doing enough to stop this trend.

I think that for speakers especially there should be more initiative, otherwise even the budget manufacturers will increase the prices up, just as these expensive manufacturers:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/dynaudio-confidence-20-loudspeaker/ - 13000$/pair

Imagine the impact of multiple blind-tests using a 300-500$ bookshelf speakers and some EQ to match the sound of the Dynaudio and not being able to distinguish them or getting a difference that doesn't justify the extra money.

For amplifiers and DACs the blind test comparison should be easier since they're supposed to color the sound less than speakers.
 
It is 'horses for courses'.
$13K pair of speakers. mind you, these days it could be each!!! - are not meant for a working guy. If I was making money in millions, regularly, I would need an outlet for my frustration, basically somewhere, somehow to treat myself.
I remember, years ago, there was a golf course somewhere in California, that charged a $100k membership fee per year! when asked why?, the answer was obvious. The rich do not like to rub shoulders with the poor!
And there is always someone ready to relieve them of that pain.
 
I'm guessing you are younger than me (55) because quality audio seems cheaper than ever.
Not from the well known brands. These are increasing the prices.
I know that chinese are coming with lower prices and flawless performance, but the whole product is not flawless and even they realize that they can increase the price to maximize the profit instead of competing to sell at lowest possible price.

For example, I have a SMSL DAC, flawless audio, not even the slightest hiss, but it heats up like crazy, I'm afraid that one day it could catch fire. Also, if I keep a mobile phone next to it, I get interference. Also whenever the audio signal from the computer stops or starts, I hear a slight pop/crack sound, and I cannot do anything from the driver. They should have mitigated this somehow.
 
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They charge the extra money since enough buyers buy! I don't think that tests will change this. On the other hand there are long established brands with reasonable prices and proven quality. Myself I buy used gear which is at least half the price new. Agree that blind tests with good amplifiers will give almost no hint which is better. Indeed the most influence to the audio sound is and will be the loudspeaker and the room.
 
Imagine the impact of multiple blind-tests using a 300-500$ bookshelf speakers and some EQ to match the sound of the Dynaudio and not being able to distinguish them or getting a difference that doesn't justify the extra money.

Been done oodles of times already.

Zero impact.

The industry is mostly focused on dreams and fantasies. No amount of reasoning will change that.

Energy is better spent making data available to those actually desire to use it, IMO.
 
I'm guessing you are younger than me (55) because quality audio seems cheaper than ever.
I concur, my first amp a JVC JAS11 cost $260AUD in 1977. My latest amp a Fosi ZA3 cost me $149AUD. Speakers seem overpriced due to import and freight costs.

inflation calculator:

$260AUD in 1976 is worth $1,943.54AUD today​

 
I concur, my first amp a JVC JAS11 cost $260AUD in 1977. My latest amp a Fosi ZA3 cost me $149AUD. Speakers seem overpriced due to import and freight costs.

inflation calculator:

$260AUD in 1976 is worth $1,943.54AUD today​

The price of milk, bread and gasoline has gone up ten times since I was married.

The WIIM amp cost $300, the same as my first bought new receiver, an Advent 300.

Speaker prices are not as dramatically uninflated, but you can get decent speakers, equivalent or better than the AR3a, for about two or three times their 1970 price.

You can certainly spend thousands per piece today, but the improvements are marginal, and in electronics, do not show up in double blind tests.
 
Even for speakers if you only listen at moderate SPLs or/and use them in untreated/oddly shaped rooms then all bets are off for sonic preferences no matter the price.
 
Even for speakers if you only listen at moderate SPLs or/and use them in untreated/oddly shaped rooms then all bets are off for sonic preferences no matter the price.
I do wonder what happens when people audition speakers in a showroom, then take them home.

My wife’s hobby was garage sales, and she enticed me to go along by encouraging me to buy audio stuff.

Out of a hundred or so purchases, I have left a Parasound amp, Some KEF 105/3s, and Polk towers used with my TV.

Gone to a collector friend are Phase Linear, HK citation, some smaller Magnapans, and lots of generic Best Buy stuff.

But I got to try stuff at home and compare my impressions with what reviewers said.
 
I also would like to see more blind reviews but it's not easy and you are relying on one reviewer or one panel of listeners. It also takes "guts" because before the results are published you know what you were listening to.

Personally, that much money seems crazy for a bookshelf speaker.

and not being able to distinguish them or getting a difference
With speakers usually you can hear a difference because of the off-axis frequency response differences and the influence of the room acoustics. You can EQ to match in the room and still possibly hear a difference.

And you'd want a blind test without EQ first since you are reviewing/evaluating the product. Amir doesn't test blind, but he measures & listens to speakers & headphones without EQ first.

that doesn't justify the extra money.
That's likely but it's a personal decision.

For amplifiers and DACs the blind test comparison should be easier since they're supposed to color the sound less than speakers.
I don't expect to hear a difference with electronics (unless an amplifier is over-driven into clipping). If there is a difference with electronics it's usually noise, and that's usually obvious enough that you don't need a bind listening test.
 
In my opinion, everything is getting more expensive nowadays without audio discernible improvements and the public isn't doing enough to stop this trend.
Dynaudio is an example of a good brand which sells for premium prices, and I'd regard those speakers as a luxury product. You might be able to achieve similar levels of performance for less money, but in the world of luxury goods, that's beside the point.
 
In my opinion, everything is getting more expensive nowadays without audio discernible improvements and the public isn't doing enough to stop this trend.

I think that for speakers especially there should be more initiative, otherwise even the budget manufacturers will increase the prices up, just as these expensive manufacturers:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/dynaudio-confidence-20-loudspeaker/ - 13000$/pair

Imagine the impact of multiple blind-tests using a 300-500$ bookshelf speakers and some EQ to match the sound of the Dynaudio and not being able to distinguish them or getting a difference that doesn't justify the extra money.

For amplifiers and DACs the blind test comparison should be easier since they're supposed to color the sound less than speakers.
A few points on this, the last one is the most important...

1. We are manufacturers ourselves in Germany and in the last 5 years our production costs, excluding employees, have increased by at least 30-50%, in some cases even by 80%. The purchase prices for finished products that we buy have even tripled.
And this is the case in almost all areas worldwide.

2. Don't take the following personally, this actually applies to most end users.
You have no idea how sales prices are made up and how they are calculated by the manufacturer. Are you aware that the manufacturer only gets a maximum of 25-40% of its products that are sold through retailers (including online and Amazon)?

3. Are you also aware that with the purchase price you are not only paying for the device, components and manufacturing costs, but also development costs, measuring device costs, building costs, sales costs, employees, etc. The development costs in particular are in the 5-6 digit range and must also be covered by the 25-40%.
Or are you not paid for your work? I am still looking for employees who will work for free.

4. Every manufacturer has the right to price their devices, speakers, etc. as they see fit, and that is none of the buyer's business.
The buyer has the right to decide for themselves whether the product is worth the price. If not, buy something else, nobody is forcing you to do anything.
And there are not only measured values or ratings after blind tests, but much more, such as materials, value, surface quality, component quality, reputation, status symbol, quality, durability, repairability (even after years or decades), service, maintenance and expansion of firmware, etc.
All costs must also always be divided by the number of units, which makes small quantities and niche products very expensive.
All things that you can pay for, or not.

5. These blind tests were already carried out 20-30 years ago, and they achieved nothing except that even more expensive products were sold. In the 90s and early 2000s there were countless listening sessions and blind tests by retailers and manufacturers. I once went to 6 of these events within a month and it took place at least 10 times throughout the day. Always with 15-30 people.
Real and usable blind tests are much more difficult, complex and costly than you imagine. Especially if you want to be as unassailable as possible.
And the results will often not be what you want.

6. But the most important point is that such low prices, or prices that are too low, lead to the problems that we now have with many manufacturers. And buyers who buy at such low prices don't need to complain about it.
Unfinished devices, hardware and firmware, no detailed tests, no long-term tests, only optimized on the AP to shine with good measured values. The result is always shown in failed devices, firmware problems, hardware problems, strange behavior, unfinished devices, etc.
But most of these cheap developments were also created on the fly (1-2 months after the release of new DAC chips, the first top devices are available), far from being mature, far from being fully developed.
Tests? Long-term tests? Quality controls? But you don't want to pay for that.
Oh yes, and a large proportion of the devices come from the standard layouts and white papers of the chip manufacturers with little development effort. No real innovations, no real or individual developments, only standard designs optimized on the AP for measured values.

With customers like these, it doesn't surprise me at all that many good manufacturers are pulling out or moving their products into a more expensive luxury segment, like Linn, for example.
Because when one of these cheap manufacturers released one of the best DACs tested here in the forum for €/$900 around 3 years ago, with many of its own developments and certainly high development costs, the manufacturer was attacked for the price.
It seems that most buyers work voluntarily and don't want to be paid for their work. Please contact me, we have enough work.
 
In my opinion, everything is getting more expensive nowadays without audio discernible improvements and the public isn't doing enough to stop this trend.

I think that for speakers especially there should be more initiative, otherwise even the budget manufacturers will increase the prices up, just as these expensive manufacturers:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/dynaudio-confidence-20-loudspeaker/ - 13000$/pair

Imagine the impact of multiple blind-tests using a 300-500$ bookshelf speakers and some EQ to match the sound of the Dynaudio and not being able to distinguish them or getting a difference that doesn't justify the extra money.

For amplifiers and DACs the blind test comparison should be easier since they're supposed to color the sound less than speakers.
Great idea. Start the movement! Conduct some some blind test demos and publish the results.
 
Great idea. Start the movement! Conduct some some blind test demos and publish the results.
I think high end audio is like high end anything, including jewelry. You pay for craftsmanship and attention to detail.

I have never been able to afford these kinds of things, except used, and sometimes in need of repair.

I am happy to let other people pay for the development of bleeding edge things. A few of them filtered down to me, second hand. But I don’t hear any difference between upscale consumer products and boutique products, and what I covet now is adequacy and convenience. I’m tired of the equipment game, and want to hear music.
 
The value of a $13000 speaker is not the performance; it's the exclusivity.
And to the "audiophile crowd" a higher price often makes the item more desirable.

My marketing professor used to say, "When in doubt, raise the price."

One of the reasons I buy "economically", is that often even expensive electronics isn't worth repairing when it fails. With cheap stuff you just throw it out and replace it, and usually you don't feel so bad.
 
And to the "audiophile crowd" a higher price often makes the item more desirable.

My marketing professor used to say, "When in doubt, raise the price."

One of the reasons I buy "economically", is that often even expensive electronics isn't worth repairing when it fails. With cheap stuff you just throw it out and replace it, and usually you don't feel so bad.
Especially if it doesn’t take space in the landfill.

Next step: user replaceable boards, like computer upgrades. No more throwing away cases.
 
The value of a $13000 speaker is not the performance; it's the exclusivity.
Not at all, speakers require proper engineering if they are going to be any good, and that's not cheap.

A $13K retail price speaker is made up of maybe $1.3K of components. It's not going to be the best speaker possible by a long margin.

Maybe at $130K you are moving into Veblen goods with loudspeakers. Maybe.
 
In my opinion, everything is getting more expensive nowadays without audio discernible improvements and the public isn't doing enough to stop this trend.

I think that for speakers especially there should be more initiative, otherwise even the budget manufacturers will increase the prices up, just as these expensive manufacturers:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/dynaudio-confidence-20-loudspeaker/ - 13000$/pair

Imagine the impact of multiple blind-tests using a 300-500$ bookshelf speakers and some EQ to match the sound of the Dynaudio and not being able to distinguish them or getting a difference that doesn't justify the extra money.

For amplifiers and DACs the blind test comparison should be easier since they're supposed to color the sound less than speakers.
Doing more blind test is a very good thing!

But there are plenty of difficulties which you might not have though of.

First: You will hear differences in a blind test with speakers. They might be smaller than most people think but there are differences. So it is much more subjective to argue against any more expensive things if differences can be detected.

Second: There is no a clear goal how a perfect speaker should measure. Constant DI, raising DI or even some small wiggles in the DI due to typical room acoustics, stereo related errors or interaction with the head related transfer functions. There is not one single clear goal how a perfect speaker should measure.

Third: There are some speakers which doesn't offer a good price performance ratio or are even bad. But very good speaker have to be expensive. A solid enclosure which can deliver deep bass is heavy and therefore expensive. A good pair match is also expensive. Very low none linear distortion is also expensive. An exotic design which sounds and measures different and good can be very expensive.

For example there are very big horn speakers like the Acapella Audio Arts or the Biggest Backes and Müller or several other speakers. They cost like a few hundreds of thousands. But they also offer an objectively very good performance. With some unique objectively good parameters like beaming in the low frequencies, very high spl with low distortion. No other less expensive speakers offer that. You will easily hear the difference compared with a normal speakers in a blind test.
 
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