• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Why are single drivers disliked to such an extent by most in this forum?

For that matter I almost ignited some La Scalas. It was close...
With what, a Elon Musk flamethrower... LOL
Escobar_Inc_Flamethrower.jpg
 
There's the Altec Biflex drivers 419-8B and 420A. They have a secondary surround part way up the cone, forming a mechanical crossover at about 1 kHz. They were used in Altec Santana and Madrid speakers with a small cone tweeter crossed over at 5 or 6 kHz.
https://greatplainsaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/419-8B.420A.1.pdf
There were other Altec Biflex driver models, as well. 12" and 15" "pro" (PA) and hifi versions.

And, yeah, a pair of 15 inch Altec Biflexes here, too. :) I don't recall the model, though (and they are in a box in the basement, and it's getting late, and I am preternaturally lazy...)

Fukuin/Pioneer also made smaller dual-compliance cone drivers that were rather similar to the Biflexes.
Besides being sold under the "Pioneer" brand, these were also sold by some US and European (British, at least) catalog retailers (e.g., Lafayette Radio Electronics, in the US).

"Any there, Marky?" I hear you ask.
Ahem.
;):cool::facepalm:



 
I used to play with single-ended 45 and 300B tube amplifiers, and would not be opposed to fussing around with a couple of Fostex back loaded horns (BK16?). But I'll admit that the single-driver BLHs that I've heard to date had no real lows or highs. Got to thinking about that cult of low-power tube amplifiers and high-sensitivity drivers, and it occurred to me: This is basically stuff that could've gotten pulled from an old radio! And for the full effect, rather than use thick birch-ply for the speaker cabinets, why not use some lighter and thinner wood, so the cabinets "sing" a bit, just like my old Grundig table radio.
 
Bear in mind a lot of us are more than "armchair" engineers and many of us have heard many full-range single-driver designs over the years. But finding a pair to listen to these days is somewhat challenging... And we all listen to our systems, as well as live music (and some perform as well). The Lii-15's use a whizzer cone IIRC to help with HF dispersion, a very common design practice among engineers armchair and otherwise. With advanced driver parameters (e.g. T-S parameters) leading to better crossover designs multiple drivers took over to offer smoother frequency response over a wider range with greater broadband dispersion and less distortion. Not to say there aren't sub-optimal multi-driver designs around... :)

The resurgence of single-driver designs I liken to the resurgence of SET amplifiers; more for the nostalgia than any real performance advantages. Plenty seem to like them, and that's OK, but pre-emptively attacking those who do not care for them due to valid technical and audible reasons seems petty.
Told you this would be the case. I'm not a first time poster, just been a while and forgot my log in details. Again, don't listen to any naysayers who haven't heard what they are talking about. Otherwise it's just imagination....running away again.
 
I used to play with single-ended 45 and 300B tube amplifiers, and would not be opposed to fussing around with a couple of Fostex back loaded horns (BK16?). But I'll admit that the single-driver BLHs that I've heard to date had no real lows or highs. Got to thinking about that cult of low-power tube amplifiers and high-sensitivity drivers, and it occurred to me: This is basically stuff that could've gotten pulled from an old radio! And for the full effect, rather than use thick birch-ply for the speaker cabinets, why not use some lighter and thinner wood, so the cabinets "sing" a bit, just like my old Grundig table radio.
A lot of older speakers were 16-ohm impedance and thus easier to drive than today's systems. Low power and compression (usually horn-loaded) systems seem a popular combination. There are even new field-coil designs; everything old can be made new again. Field coils have some interesting things going for them, but eat a lot of power in the coil (not necessarily from the audio amplifier).
 
Do coaxial designs with HF crossovers to tweeters get around the physics? Advantages or disadvantages of those? I'm a novice trying to understand
In my very limited experience ”yes” you get the single acoustic source and in case of for example active KEF’s the phase is compensated via DSP .

But you inherent another problem from fullrange drivers :) you better make a coax speaker 3 way for best performance and or add sub(s)
The 3 way solution is best , you really want to make the coax driver an optimal Midrange/Tweeter .
For example the shape of the suround is an issue , you don’t want a large half roll like in a big subwoofer driver
 
Unfortunately, here in the thread coaxial constructions, which are actually two-way speakers, are mixed with real full-range drivers. These are two worlds apart.

The cabinet in the picture I had originally designed as a two-way system, therefore it still has a cutout at the top. Here it is closed.

melaudia8agn-1136.jpg


ela-quartett400.jpg
 
Last edited:
There were other Altec Biflex driver models, as well. 12" and 15" "pro" (PA) and hifi versions.

And, yeah, a pair of 15 inch Altec Biflexes here, too. :) I don't recall the model, though (and they are in a box in the basement, and it's getting late, and I am preternaturally lazy...)

Fukuin/Pioneer also made smaller dual-compliance cone drivers that were rather similar to the Biflexes.
Besides being sold under the "Pioneer" brand, these were also sold by some US and European (British, at least) catalog retailers (e.g., Lafayette Radio Electronics, in the US).

"Any there, Marky?" I hear you ask.
Ahem.
;):cool::facepalm:



You seem to be a real collector. :)

The biflexes are an interesting design, but they mostly no longer work properly with old speakers because they require precise tuning of the soft cone suspensions. The material ages and changes.

By the way, such real fullrange 'biflex' drivers were also used in the famous old Elipson speakers. I show here my own photo of one of them. It was a weekend of the audio friends of Mélauda in a clubhouse near Paris at the Seine, where this time various Elipson loudspeakers were topic focus.

elipson1136.jpg
 
Last edited:
What would be the case? A respectful and well founded respons to your attack ("armchair engineers")?
No one could take that as an insult :rolleyes:
 
I'm a fan -- but, of course, not single drivers.
Coaxial, of course, but two separate drivers.

Two pairs of Duplexes (604B and 604E) here -- neither currently in use, though (and in full disclosure).






in situ and complete with audiophile-grade dust. :cool:
Ever tried playing with the various crossovers for the 604? Although these days DSP might be even better (blasphemy; right?)
 
Altec also used them in commercial applications, and this preceded the age of amazing disappearing foam surrounds.
Suspensions were liable to settling; one of mine needed replacing under "Full 5 year" warranty.
To this day most pro drivers use an accordion surround. You can get a tiny amount of clicking or slapping at high excursions, but otherwise it's superior at centering the cone and lasts quite a while.
 
Philips in particular has built quite excellent true full-range speakers. I had several of them. Among others, they made this studio monitor with a 12" driver. 100dB, 44 Hz Low. Unfortunately, I could not get one of these. I would have been very interested!

monitor-12.JPG
 
Thankfully no; nobody manufactures such a terrible speaker, today.
Not with the horn, perhaps. You obviously haven't seen the FR of a lot of full range drivers.
 
Not with the horn, perhaps. You obviously haven't seen the FR of a lot of full range drivers.
Show me, especially the historical ones everyone is drooling over here.
 
Show me, especially the historical ones everyone is drooling over here.
I'm sure they were scary, uhm I mean full of character, too ;)
 
They all look kind of the same. Kind of lumpy and bumpy.
Many of them (vintage/classic and modern) have an edgy quality folks like me refer to as "tizzy" -- and some of them just plain shout at the listener.
Some (not all) of the Fostex drivers are notorious for shouting.
... and then we have the venerable Lowther twincones -- one of those drivers that could be weaponized in the wrong hands. ;)

I am sure those Lii drivers are similiarly lumpy and bumpy, too.
15 inch twincones are nothing new, but they're certainly not the sweet spot for an extended range driver.




These are Electrovocice's entry level ("Wolverine") 15 inch twincones, e.g., :)
 
Back
Top Bottom