HDMI to digital active speakers. Why is this so hard?

[edechamps]

The correct way to do this is to go from eARC to Dante or AES67 then in to a Genelec 9401A and thence in to the SAM system over AES. This will allow you to do bass management and room correction entirely in the Genelec world using GLM. However https://www.blustream.co.uk/hdmi-switchers-sw42da does actually exists

Oh wow, thank you so much, that's an extremely interesting find! I did not even consider going over Dante/AES67/AoIP because I just assumed the prices would be horrendous, but I can find that product for £1260 which is actually not that unreasonable given what it's capable of: not only does it have eARC, decoding of all Dolby & DTS formats, digital output, but it also has a full-blown web UI... and what's even more WTF is it even has a DAC and balanced audio outputs, meaning it basically does what a Marantz AV10 does (and then some) for a fifth of the price! That's amazing :O It also feels like a very serious professional product, not some kind of audiophile crap. I feel like I should ping @amirm here, maybe that's something he would be interested in reviewing...

I'm going to do some research on Dante/AES67. I'm quite intrigued by the concept because as a software/network engineer the idea of transporting real-time audio over IP/Ethernet makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

Sadly the only thing that's missing from the SW42DA is EQ/room correction capabilities. For that, I feel like I have two options. I can use some third-party EQ solution, either going balanced analog to something like miniDSP Flex HTx, or digital to something that can take AES67 (assuming that can be found at a reasonable price). Or I can use the Genelec 9401A and GLM, but that is sadly very expensive (£2500). A SW42DA + miniDSP Flex HTx solution would cost me about £2k but involves repeatedly going back and forth between digital and analog; a SW42DA + 9401A solution would cost me £4k but is extremely clean with digital all the way to the speaker.

I shall explore this solution space further. Thanks once again for the great advice, you've definitely given me some food for thought.

 

[masterhw]

Recommend you check out this related thread https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...u-via-dante-for-okta-8-etc.59673/post-2250540

 

[Tre2023]

Oh wow, thank you so much, that's an extremely interesting find! I did not even consider going over Dante/AES67/AoIP because I just assumed the prices would be horrendous, but I can find that product for £1260 which is actually not that unreasonable given what it's capable of: not only does it have eARC, decoding of all Dolby & DTS formats, digital output, but it also has a full-blown web UI... and what's even more WTF is it even has a DAC and balanced audio outputs, meaning it basically does what a Marantz AV10 does (and then some) for a fifth of the price! That's amazing :O It also feels like a very serious professional product, not some kind of audiophile crap. I feel like I should ping @amirm here, maybe that's something he would be interested in reviewing...

I'm going to do some research on Dante/AES67. I'm quite intrigued by the concept because as a software/network engineer the idea of transporting real-time audio over IP/Ethernet makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

Sadly the only thing that's missing from the SW42DA is EQ/room correction capabilities. For that, I feel like I have two options. I can use some third-party EQ solution, either going balanced analog to something like miniDSP Flex HTx, or digital to something that can take AES67 (assuming that can be found at a reasonable price). Or I can use the Genelec 9401A and GLM, but that is sadly very expensive (£2500). A SW42DA + miniDSP Flex HTx solution would cost me about £2k but involves repeatedly going back and forth between digital and analog; a SW42DA + 9401A solution would cost me £4k but is extremely clean with digital all the way to the speaker.

I shall explore this solution space further. Thanks once again for the great advice, you've definitely given me some food for thought.

Seems like a lot of trouble to try and keep the signal digital to the Genelecs. If only wanting to use the TV’s apps without an external streaming device and into an eARC equipped processor, I’d also look at the Marantz 70s. It has eight channel pre outs and will handle Dolby and DTS signals.

 

[edechamps]

I’d also look at the Marantz 70s. It has eight channel pre outs and will handle Dolby and DTS signals.

I'm not ruling out analog, but if I'm going analog I will insist on it being balanced. I've been burned enough with ground loops and various noise/EMI issues that my instinctive reaction to unbalanced analog is "no thank you". The Marantz Cinema 70s only has unbalanced analog outs. I'd rather pay a bit more for the SW42DA and use its balanced analog outputs.

 

[somebodyelse]

Sadly the only thing that's missing from the SW42DA is EQ/room correction capabilities.

It's probably viable with a Pi, thin client or similar, and whatever linux-based EQ you prefer. I've not seen a CamillaDSP tutorial for this scenario yet.
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/wikis/AES67

 

[edechamps]

It's probably viable with a Pi, thin client or similar, and whatever linux-based EQ you prefer

I would be worried about the latency impact of something like this. General purpose OSes are not designed for reliable real-time low-latency audio processing.

 

[somebodyelse]

I would be worried about the latency impact of something like this. General purpose OSes are not designed for reliable real-time low-latency audio processing.

You better be careful what hardware solution you pick then - the ones using Dante Embedded Platform will be running linux.

 

[Audioworks]

Oh wow, thank you so much, that's an extremely interesting find! I did not even consider going over Dante/AES67/AoIP because I just assumed the prices would be horrendous, but I can find that product for £1260 which is actually not that unreasonable given what it's capable of: not only does it have eARC, decoding of all Dolby & DTS formats, digital output, but it also has a full-blown web UI... and what's even more WTF is it even has a DAC and balanced audio outputs, meaning it basically does what a Marantz AV10 does (and then some) for a fifth of the price! That's amazing :O It also feels like a very serious professional product, not some kind of audiophile crap. I feel like I should ping @amirm here, maybe that's something he would be interested in reviewing...

I'm going to do some research on Dante/AES67. I'm quite intrigued by the concept because as a software/network engineer the idea of transporting real-time audio over IP/Ethernet makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

Sadly the only thing that's missing from the SW42DA is EQ/room correction capabilities. For that, I feel like I have two options. I can use some third-party EQ solution, either going balanced analog to something like miniDSP Flex HTx, or digital to something that can take AES67 (assuming that can be found at a reasonable price). Or I can use the Genelec 9401A and GLM, but that is sadly very expensive (£2500). A SW42DA + miniDSP Flex HTx solution would cost me about £2k but involves repeatedly going back and forth between digital and analog; a SW42DA + 9401A solution would cost me £4k but is extremely clean with digital all the way to the speaker.

I shall explore this solution space further. Thanks once again for the great advice, you've definitely given me some food for thought.

Why do you seem to be ruling out connecting a Wiim Ultra to your TV and front speakers (and sub). You can then wirelessly connect a Wiim pro to your active surrounds.

5.1 is still in beta testing with Wiim, but as far as I can tell it will offer you everything you wanting: HDMI ARC, bass management, EQ, compatible with active speakers, and very affordable.

What am I missing?

 

[Tre2023]

I'm not ruling out analog, but if I'm going analog I will insist on it being balanced. I've been burned enough with ground loops and various noise/EMI issues that my instinctive reaction to unbalanced analog is "no thank you". The Marantz Cinema 70s only has unbalanced analog outs. I'd rather pay a bit more for the SW42DA and use its balanced analog outputs.

I understand. In that case, I’d go with the Apple TV 4K and Flex. The Apple TV 4K will output multichannel PCM for supported tracks and the Flex can up mix any two channel PCM signals.

 

[kandamrgam]

Why do you seem to be ruling out connecting a Wiim Ultra to your TV and front speakers (and sub). You can then wirelessly connect a Wiim pro to your active surrounds.

5.1 is still in beta testing with Wiim, but as far as I can tell it will offer you everything you wanting: HDMI ARC, bass management, EQ, compatible with active speakers, and very affordable.

What am I missing?

At this point go all the way with WiSA. Buy WiSA TV and WiSA speakers, cut the middle men out!

 

[kandamrgam]

The correct way to do this is to go from eARC to Dante or AES67 then in to a Genelec 9401A and thence in to the SAM system over AES. This will allow you to do bass management and room correction entirely in the Genelec world using GLM.

There was supposed to be the Arvus H1-D to just go from eARC to Dante but it’s MIA.

However

SW42DA

4-Way HDMI Switcher with Multi-Channel Dante Audio Breakout

www.blustream.co.uk

does actually exists, is cheaper than the last advertised price for the Arvus and will get you from any reasonable format on eARC to a variety of formats between 5.1 and either 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 over Dante. Obviously it does a bunch of stuff you don’t need as well.

The one thing I hate about all this is how many separates I have to buy. First eARC to Dante decoder, then 9401A for converting to AES, then buy even more AES splitters? Why can't I have a single box that has 12-16 individual digital ports so that cabling is very straightforward.

 

[3ll3d00d]

The thing is, I am not an Apple person - all my other devices are Android and Windows. I could make an exception here but I'm worried about how usable the Apple TV will be when I don't have any Apple device to interact with it

Same here but it works fine (I use HA as primary control interface) and the software/os seems way ahead of anything else (in terms of responsiveness).

Fwiw not sure it's helpful in your case but I capture this using a magewell pro capture card and use jriver for all audio/visual dsp, including multichannel audio and HDR (had to write my own filter https://github.com/3ll3d00d/mwcapture) to do it but this works really well as an avr replacement.

 

[masterhw]

I understand. In that case, I’d go with the Apple TV 4K and Flex. The Apple TV 4K will output multichannel PCM for supported tracks and the Flex can up mix any two channel PCM signals.

Once again the Apple TV 4K cannot handle lossless multichannel codecs natively*, so this is still a somewhat quality compromised approach. Also relevant is no source-based decoder renders height/spatial channels, including the handful of devices which do support lossless (all max out at 7.1.0). Height/spatial will have to be an outboard decoder, maybe that Bluestream or NuPrimeX device would do. Hate that you pay more to do less than an AVR - but a little less punishing if all you want is 5.1/7.1.

We seem to be slowly growing in choices, but its still really difficult to come up with anything close to an "ideal" all-digital setup today. I described what a reimagined all-digital AVR could look like here:

Why do passive speakers still exist?

w/ the micro-ination of amps and digital processing ? I imagine designers are busy atm creating integrated wireless/dac/amp/crossovers/eq/loudness curve loudspeakers for the next generation of KEF LS Meta or Neumann KH120 MKII-types. Can't wait to hear them : = ) Nah.... alot of people will...

audiosciencereview.com

*specifically the Infuse player can decode TrueHD to LPCM but discards all Atmos-related metadata, which I believe comes from being ffmpeg based.
Also, don't get me started on Dolby Vision Profile7 support. While of minor consequence, I don't think most people realize playback of UHD BluRay rips almost never properly renders HDR metadata. Optimistic 2025 will see more options, the choices are pretty scant for devices that can playback (near-)identically to how a real bluray player would. But I know this is an audio/music oriented space so maybe most of you don't care much for visual fidelity. I figure of the multichannel audio crowd potentially a lot of you are home theatre overlaps like me.

 

[Tre2023]

Once again the Apple TV 4K cannot handle lossless multichannel codecs natively*, so this is still a somewhat quality compromised approach. Also relevant is no source-based decoder renders height/spatial channels, including the handful of devices which do support lossless (all max out at 7.1.0). Height/spatial will have to be an outboard decoder, maybe that Bluestream or NuPrimeX device would do. Hate that you pay more to do less than an AVR - but a little less punishing if all you want is 5.1/7.1.

We seem to be slowly growing in choices, but its still really difficult to come up with anything close to an "ideal" all-digital setup today. I described what a reimagined all-digital AVR could look like here:

Why do passive speakers still exist?

w/ the micro-ination of amps and digital processing ? I imagine designers are busy atm creating integrated wireless/dac/amp/crossovers/eq/loudness curve loudspeakers for the next generation of KEF LS Meta or Neumann KH120 MKII-types. Can't wait to hear them : = ) Nah.... alot of people will...

audiosciencereview.com

*specifically the Infuse player can decode TrueHD to LPCM but discards all Atmos-related metadata, which I believe comes from being ffmpeg based.
Also, don't get me started on Dolby Vision Profile7 support. While of minor consequence, I don't think most people realize playback of UHD BluRay rips almost never properly renders HDR metadata. Optimistic 2025 will see more options, the choices are pretty scant for devices that can playback (near-)identically to how a real bluray player would. But I know this is an audio/music oriented space so maybe most of you don't care much for visual fidelity. I figure of the multichannel audio crowd potentially a lot of you are home theatre overlaps like me.

The use case here is for 5.1 and the TV's app would have sufficed if it could output multichannel PCM from its own apps over eARC to the Flex.

If lossy signals from streaming services is the only concern here, there is no issue. But, as you mention, there are other issues.

It would be nice if AVP/AVRs replaced many of the analog input ports with digital output ports these days.

 

[edechamps]

Why do you seem to be ruling out connecting a Wiim Ultra to your TV and front speakers (and sub). You can then wirelessly connect a Wiim pro to your active surrounds.

5.1 is still in beta testing with Wiim, but as far as I can tell it will offer you everything you wanting: HDMI ARC, bass management, EQ, compatible with active speakers, and very affordable.

They don't advertise eARC support, only ARC, suggesting lossless 5.1 is not supported (and potential trouble if a source wants to send LPCM 5.1).

Also, the analog audio out is unbalanced. They advertise S/PDIF output (potentially making it possible to connect to the Genelecs through AES/EBU I guess) but I would definitely want confirmation that individual channels in an HDMI 5.1 stream can be decoded to PCM, EQ'd, bass managed and then arbitrarily routed to any channel of any S/PDIF output on any of the 3 Wiims I would have to network together. I'm skeptical it is that flexible, but I would love to be proven wrong!

I understand. In that case, I’d go with the Apple TV 4K and Flex. The Apple TV 4K will output multichannel PCM for supported tracks and the Flex can up mix any two channel PCM signals.

One thing that appeals to me with something like the SW42DA is it gives me complete freedom as to which source I use. It doesn't matter because it can decode anything I throw at it, just like a normal consumer AVR. Basically it's like a Marantz AV10, just 5 times cheaper. This makes my setup less "special snowflaky" as far as the source is concerned, reducing the potential for problems.

In fact, one thing I really like about that approach is that I could even use the smart TV's built-in apps, because they would send Dolby/DTS to the SW42DA which it can then decode. That is simply not possible with the miniDSP HTx Flex - it will require me to use an Apple TV or equivalent. Which also means that Dolby over live aerial TV won't work, etc.

At this point go all the way with WiSA. Buy WiSA TV and WiSA speakers, cut the middle men out!

My current plan is to buy an LG G5 when it comes out. Not sure how to get WiSA out of it, nor how to get from WiSA to the Genelecs.

The use case here is for 5.1 and the TV's app would have sufficed if it could output multichannel PCM from its own apps over eARC to the Flex.

Exactly.

 

[kandamrgam]

They don't advertise eARC support, only ARC, suggesting lossless 5.1 is not supported (and potential trouble if a source wants to send LPCM 5.1).

Also, the analog audio out is unbalanced. They advertise S/PDIF output (potentially making it possible to connect to the Genelecs through AES/EBU I guess) but I would definitely want confirmation that individual channels in an HDMI 5.1 stream can be decoded to PCM, EQ'd, bass managed and then arbitrarily routed to any channel of any S/PDIF output on any of the 3 Wiims I would have to network together. I'm skeptical it is that flexible, but I would love to be proven wrong!



One thing that appeals to me with something like the SW42DA is it gives me complete freedom as to which source I use. It doesn't matter because it can decode anything I throw at it, just like a normal consumer AVR. This makes my setup less "special snowflaky" as far as the source is concerned, reducing the potential for problems.

In fact, one thing I really like about that approach is that I could even use the smart TV's built-in apps, because they would send Dolby/DTS to the SW42DA which it can then decode. That is simply not possible with the miniDSP HTx Flex - it will require me to use an Apple TV or equivalent. Which also means that Dolby over live aerial TV won't work, etc.



My current plan is to buy an LG G5 when it comes out. Not sure how to get WiSA out of it, nor how to get from WiSA to the Genelecs.



Exactly.

You will have to buy WiSA enabled TV and speakers. I suppose such TVs will do the decoding/channeling part. But WiSA is restricted to 8 channels (7.1 or 5.1.2).

 

[chelgrian]

The one thing I hate about all this is how many separates I have to buy. First eARC to Dante decoder, then 9401A for converting to AES, then buy even more AES splitters? Why can't I have a single box that has 12-16 individual digital ports so that cabling is very straightforward.

You don’t need any AES ‘splitters’ you daisy chain two SAM monitors together each has a AES3 input and an AES3 output.

You can have a processor which outputs AES3 is just very expensive both the Trinnov Altitude and the Storm Audio ISP Evo can be configured with AES3 for all outputs.

There just isn’t a market for this to be cheap.

 

[kandamrgam]

You don’t need any AES ‘splitters’ you daisy chain two SAM monitors together each has a AES3 input and an AES3 output.

You can have a processor which outputs AES3 is just very expensive both the Trinnov Altitude and the Storm Audio ISP Evo can be configured with AES3 for all outputs.

There just isn’t a market for this to be cheap.

You do the daisy chaining with cable like this?

So speakers will be in kinda slave-master configuration? Also what to pair center speaker with? The sub?

 

[chelgrian]

You do the daisy chaining with cable like this?View attachment 435595

So speakers will be in kinda slave-master configuration? Also what to pair center speaker with? The sub?

AES3 carries a stereo signal each speaker just ‘listens’ to the one it wants and you connect them with standard AES cable with XLRs on it.

Note AES cable is slightly different to what you use for analogue audio over XLR cables as it has a different characteristic impedance this doesn’t matter over short distances but starts to matter once you get beyond 10m or so. The cable is cheap anyway if bought from a pro audio supplier.

What is connected to what is configurable in GLM the default will be in the manual for the unit and there are example systems for immersive with diagrams on Genelecs website.

The sub is special that does use both audio channels a SAM sub being managed with GLM takes the LFE on one channel and a sum of all the other inputs on the other channel provided by a 9401A or a 9301B. The bass management and other correction is done in the speakers and the subs DSP controlled by GLM.

 

[Dave Zan]

This link (to credit the member who raised it) shows a Nuprime HDMI extractor that looks like it could do what you want, a little cheaper than the Blustream at $800 US, or less than 1000 EUR, if Dante/AES67 is acceptable.

Best wishes
David