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Why are single drivers disliked to such an extent by most in this forum?

computer-audiophile

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... I've not yet owned any electrostatic or magnetic planar speakers.
Also, I don't think that one can get any meaningful feedback from listening in a store or show.
This varies from case to case. I was a few times at the Quadfest of the company in the following link and know the owner and the people. There you can really listen to the Quad electrostats in peace and make your own judgement.

https://www.quad-musik-shop.de/en

Once I met there Professor Jürg Jecklin again (R.I.P) which was another audio V.I.P from Europe. From him I read his "Lautsprecherbuch" (working principle, construction, housing and characteristics of modern loudspeakers) and I also once owned a then futuristic electrostatic headphone he had designed, the 'Jecklin Float'.

This is my photo from this situation with Jürg. In the background there can be seen a Quad ESL double stack configuration + special Subwoofer. This is also exactly the configuration that my friend has and that I had mentioned before.

jecklin1280.jpg
 
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SivKiv

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I don't know of any other way to create sound then pistonic motion, do you?
DML's and BMR's, they use a sort of "exciter" on a panel/diaphragm. I am not well-informed on how they produce sound, but they promise a directivity wider than "standard" designs with the same diameter.
 

fpitas

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Oh, what exactly is being done here?
MTMing the 511 horn with a quad of SEAS midrange drivers. The SEAS side-by-side arrangement horizontal polar pattern matches that of the horn at the 770Hz crossover. The MTM vertical pattern at 770Hz is about 40 degrees. Using an in-phase (LR4) crossover means the drivers are in-phase and radiate in a point-source manner. Although the concept dates from the 80s, it has become popular with the latest breed of studio monitors such as the Genelec 8381A. The SEAS are crossed over at 110Hz baffle step to the 15" woofer, to minimize doppler distortion.
 
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computer-audiophile

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Returning to the subject of full-range loudspeakers: With many full-range speakers, one is tempted to extend the frequency range either downward or upward by adding either a subwoofer or a super tweeter. This is what I did with my Greencone speakers, for example.

The Lii-Audio F15, which has been mentioned here several times, doesn't really need it. It can also do bass. I think that the Doppler effect is also minimal, because the membrane does not have to make much excursion.

f15-desk.jpg
 
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sarumbear

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DML's and BMR's, they use a sort of "exciter" on a panel/diaphragm. I am not well-informed on how they produce sound, but they promise a directivity wider than "standard" designs with the same diameter.
I don't know what those acronyms mean but if there is a panel or diaphragm that moves that is a piston action. A piston doesn't have to be a circle.
 

tuga

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I think that the Doppler effect is also minimal, because the membrane does not have to make much excursion.

Are you able to measure IMD? It would be interesting to compare full-range with low-passed and band-passed.
 

computer-audiophile

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Are you able to measure IMD? It would be interesting to compare full-range with low-passed and band-passed.
No, I no longer have any measuring devices worth mentioning at all. The time of extensive experiments is over for me. My statement merely referred to the consideration that such a large full range driver as the F15 must make smaller cone amplitudes than a small one, to achieve the same SPL. I think that the Doppler effect is less then.
 

sarumbear

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This, maybe?


Jim
I should have qualified with audible range. There had been band limited solutions but none covered the full audio range.

Otherwise, there had been band limited solutions that worked well.

IMG_2196.jpeg
 
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SivKiv

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I don't know what those acronyms mean but if there is a panel or diaphragm that moves that is a piston action. A piston doesn't have to be a circle.
They stand for Distributed Mode Loudspeakers and Balanced Mode Radiators.
 

jhaider

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The big problem with alnico was cost. That's why everybody went to ferrite. These days, most new pro drivers seem to use neodymium, because it's relatively cheap, compact and other than the gobs of steel for the magnetic circuit, light.

Supply chain shock (IIRC civil war in the DR Congo) and cost, but they have another big disadvantage - demagnetization.

See, e.g. https://greatplainsaudio.com/alnico-magnets-degaussing-losing-magnetic-field/

Maybe when a 30W amp was big time that was less of an issue than now, when I think it’s fair to say 200W is a more common figure.


I think this driver may have been originally designed by Mark Dodd, who is better known for first reinventing the Tannoy Dual Concentric with his "tulip waveguide" units and then reinventing the KEF Uni-Q in its current form.

Point being, if an industry titan such as Mark Dodd can't reinvent the single dynamic driver system into something competent, probably nobody can!
 

tuga

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I should have qualified with audible range. There had been band limited solutions but none covered the full audio range.

Otherwise, there had been band limited solutions that worked well.

View attachment 288402
I've always wondered about the group delay of that thing.
 

tuga

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Supply chain shock (IIRC civil war in the DR Congo) and cost, but they have another big disadvantage - demagnetization.

See, e.g. https://greatplainsaudio.com/alnico-magnets-degaussing-losing-magnetic-field/

Maybe when a 30W amp was big time that was less of an issue than now, when I think it’s fair to say 200W is a more common figure.



I think this driver may have been originally designed by Mark Dodd, who is better known for first reinventing the Tannoy Dual Concentric with his "tulip waveguide" units and then reinventing the KEF Uni-Q in its current form.

Point being, if an industry titan such as Mark Dodd can't reinvent the single dynamic driver system into something competent, probably nobody can!
The measured performance of the Ampeggio is appalling:

 

holdingpants01

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there are some interesting qualities about single driver loudspeakers and they are used in the studios all over because of them. I recently bough a pair of single driver studio monitors for my studio: Auratone 5c with amp made by Bettermaker. The sound is band limited by design, but the low end is surprisingly clean, fast and extended for such small closed box, 4.5" driver in a 16cm cube. It decays measurably faster and roll off gentler than my Genelec 8351B with a pair of 7260, so I can still tell what's going on in the bass range. Midrange is quite neutral and papery, high end is quite jagged though. What I find most useful about them is that they show rather different balance between the elements of the mix. The relation of vocal or lead instrument to the rest of the arrangement is exaggerated as there are much less distractions from the extremes of frequencies to balance it. I can understand that someone would prefer this kind of presentation for recreational listening, it will be limiting on what sounds good or as intended, but it surely could be fun and even revealing of some elements, not because single driver is technically better, but specifically because it's not, so it will hide some stuff, which makes other things more apparent.
 

computer-audiophile

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there are some interesting qualities about single driver loudspeakers and they are used in the studios all over because of them. I recently bough a pair of single driver studio monitors for my studio: Auratone 5c with amp made by Bettermaker. The sound is band limited by design, but the low end is surprisingly clean, fast and extended for such small closed box, 4.5" driver in a 16cm cube. It decays measurably faster and roll off gentler than my Genelec 8351B with a pair of 7260, so I can still tell what's going on in the bass range. Midrange is quite neutral and papery, high end is quite jagged though. What I find most useful about them is that they show rather different balance between the elements of the mix. The relation of vocal or lead instrument to the rest of the arrangement is exaggerated as there are much less distractions from the extremes of frequencies to balance it. I can understand that someone would prefer this kind of presentation for recreational listening, it will be limiting on what sounds good or as intended, but it surely could be fun and even revealing of some elements, not because single driver is technically better, but specifically because it's not, so it will hide some stuff, which makes other things more apparent.
Yes, I think it's worth thinking about what the merits of good full-range speakers could be. I've been puzzling for a long time, too. For example, my Saba Greencone speakers have very light cones made of thin special paper. I believe their surprisingly transparent music reproduction has something to do with transient and decay characteristics. 'Einschwingverhalten' is the correct term in German.

When I presented my very first DIY speaker prototype with old Saba Greencone drivers* at the European Triode Festival in 2004, I received the following comments from people whose judgment I have great respect for. Here are a few verbatim quotes:

- Eelco Grimm a young sound engineer, the current owner of Grimm-Audio (grimmaudio.com) said for example: "Best of the show."

- Guido Tent from TentLabs (tentlabs.com) wrote in his eMail report from the European Triode Festival: "(my real name inserted) had a speaker that worked very well to my ears."

- Hartmut Quaschik wrote for TNT Audio: "(my real name inserted) (Germany) showed his Saba Greencone loudspeaker in a special resonant cabinet. This system played Nina Simone extremely relaxed and detailed at low volumes, but disliked electronic pop like Portishead at higher levels."


*In addition to the Fullange driver, this particular speaker had a Greencone tweeter that was simply coupled quite high via a capacitor. The special transparent and natural sound, however, came from the main speaker. It was also not limited upwards by a crossover, but worked as a fullrange speaker.

Own Photo:

greencones.jpg
 
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sarumbear

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They stand for Distributed Mode Loudspeakers and Balanced Mode Radiators.
Don't they all use electromagnetic piston action drive units?
 

sarumbear

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holdingpants01

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The "interesting" qualities of the single driver speakers used in studios is very simple, and driven by desire for profit. There still exist many cheap, shoddy radios in the world, and a mix is checked on single driver speakers to see whether the recording will sound good enough to attract listeners. That market is, after all, still very competitive.

I think i know why I'm using it in my studio and it's not because of the small radios, also yes, it's my job so obviously it's for profit
 

fpitas

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Aren't you afraid that using a driver with so much uhm personality will result in mixes that don't translate well to good speakers?
 
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