The point of diminishing for speakers is...?

[rdenney]

um~ seriously? I think the basically FR standpoint alone quite a lot of duds out there? not only the very cheap ones but also some of the really well known brands also have extremely uneven response?

That's my point--I see no strong correlation between price and sound quality, within the intended operating envelope of the product.

Rick "the size and shape of the operating envelope is another matter" Denney

 

[rdenney]

as little as possible ... provided a certain benchmark of performance is met, correct?

Of course. That's why there are measurements and trials.

Rick "whose threshold is not being distracted by lack of appropriate instrument timbre" Denney

 

[YSC]

That's my point--I see no strong correlation between price and sound quality, within the intended operating envelope of the product.

Rick "the size and shape of the operating envelope is another matter" Denney

So true, so yea, just as any hobby stuffs, for my fellow hifi friends IRL some of them have passion about really sexy looking towers which measure very flat (they claim they opt by ears and completely ditch measurement, but then ended up choosing the Vivid Giya G1 which by various measurement published, is remakably flat till like 40hz), pair with arm costing cables and mega bucks power amps, while some of us budget player opt for Studio monitors like Adam T5V or even Fostex PM 0.3 which was dirt cheap. it don't really correlate with our income but our own point of diminishing return

 

[Wes]

Being rated by Stereophile means a speaker is already way, way above the price point of diminishing returns….. and it still might not be any good.

I suggest you listen to them and compare with other cone based ones up to say 20k

 

[Wes]

There are two issues with a "point of diminishing returns"

1st, you need to have 2 axes defined - one for cost and the other for the quality that is to be diminished

2nd, once that is done you may find there is no point of diminishing returns, but simply a smooth curve - or several

 

[Pearljam5000]

There are two issues with a "point of diminishing returns"

1st, you need to have 2 axes defined - one for cost and the other for the quality that is to be diminished

2nd, once that is done you may find there is no point of diminishing returns, but simply a smooth curve - or several

How much better this Wilson will sound

Compares to this Genelec at X30 the price

 

[redshift]

I thought N, was the number of bicycles you needed.

When you reach N-1, it’s time to find another expensive hobby.

 

[FrantzM]

How much better this Wilson will sound
View attachment 141107
Compares to this Genelec at X30 the price
View attachment 141108

"How much better" supposes that at least the Wilson is superior? It might not.

More bass potentially. A better comparison would have been one of the Genelec "Main Monitors". IMO

Beast such as these:
1238 A

or

Genelec 1236A

In term of pure objective performance, my money is on the Genelecs... Whether I or most audiophile would tolerate this paragon of ugliness is a different issue

Peace

 

[peanuts]

no way puny ass speakers as several mentioned is any way approaches diminishing returns. kef r3? lol

something like this is the beginning, but you have to build.

 

[Pearljam5000]

How much better supposes that at leat the Wilson is superior? It might not.

More bass potentially. A better comparison would have been one of the Genelec "Main Monitors". IMO

Beast such as these:
1238 A
View attachment 141111

or

Genelec 1236A
View attachment 141112

In term of pure objective performance, my money is on the Genelecs... Whether I or most audiophile would tolerate this paragon of ugliness is a different issue

Peace

So why are audiophiles paying $300K for the Wilson speakers?

 

[FrantzM]

no way puny ass speakers as several mentioned is any way approaches diminishing returns. kef r3? lol

something like this is the beginning, but you have to build.

I would surmise that one needs to sit at least 50 feet away for the drivers to coincide ?

 

[FrantzM]

So why are audiophiles paying $300K for the Wilson speakers?

The same reason why they pay $5000 for Ethernet cables... or >$10,000 for one USB.. cable ...

 

[gsp1971]

There are two issues with a "point of diminishing returns"

1st, you need to have 2 axes defined - one for cost and the other for the quality that is to be diminished

2nd, once that is done you may find there is no point of diminishing returns, but simply a smooth curve - or several

The problem is how to properly define quality with one metric in one axis.
Once you have done that, there is definitely diminishing returns.
It is highly unlikely that going from a 10K speaker to a 20K speaker, you get double the quality.
By definition, this is diminishing returns.

 

[rdenney]

The problem is how to properly define quality with one metric in one axis.
Once you have done that, there is definitely diminishing returns.
It is highly unlikely that going from a 10K speaker to a 20K speaker, you get double the quality.
By definition, this is diminishing returns.

If the axis is "coolness when impressing one's wealthy buddies", are $300,000 speakers ten times as cool as $30,000 speakers?

You bet!

Rick "the secondary market usually sorts this out" Denney

 

[gsp1971]

If the axis is "coolness when impressing one's wealthy buddies"

"Coolness when impressing one's wealthy buddies" does not measure quality.
Such individuals are few and far between compared to the general population and do not represent the average consumer.
Come on, Rick.

 

[rdenney]

"Coolness when impressing one's wealthy buddies" does not measure quality.
Such individuals are few and far between compared to the general population and do not represent the average consumer.
Come on, Rick.

My point was that sound quality is largely unrelated to price within the intended operating envelope, so the diminishing return line is flat to begin with, but that sound quality wasn't the driver of price in any case.

But if my example is too rich for your blood, then subtract a zero or two. I learned when talking to wristwatch collectors not to underestimate the financial reach of "the average consumer" when the target is impressing their buddies.

Rick "not immune from this effect" Denney

 

[gsp1971]

One more thing.
I can't remember on which thread, but there is a youtube video about members of the Audiophile Club of Athens and the extremes they have gone to in order to achieve sonic perfection.
Please find it and watch it, if you can.
Watch the guy who has messed about with the electricity grid and keeps saying "it needs to have 235 V constant all the time, all the time".
And when the film shooter asks them how much money they have spent overall, you can feel the embarrassment in their responses.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

In case you didn’t notice, I’m talking about being rated by Stereophile, not about D&D.

Of course, Stereophile has rated the D&D. And, although I think however I might define a point of diminishing return, a comprehensive view would have many of such points. The D&D would not be the first/lowest but it would probably be one of them.

 

[gsp1971]

Yes Rick, it exists, I agree, but it's a different ballgame, with decisions being made based on things other than economic sense, i.e. neither financial nor logical - peer acceptance? self vindication? something else? who knows? out of my field of knowledge, so I can't say.

... not to underestimate the financial reach of "the average consumer" when the target is impressing their buddies.

or "the ability of the average consumer to get into (more) debt", I would add.

 

[Ron Texas]

It's hard to define the point of diminishing returns. It depends on tastes, how rich you are and what your listening space is like. In a flimsily built wood frame apartment building one hits that point fast because high dynamic range and bass extension, the two things which are costly, are lease breakers.

We all know there's lots of expensive stuff out there which is total BS.

Perhaps for people with means, no neighbor problems and enough space the $22,000 Salon 2 represents the top. Beyond that it's just pissing money away.