Upgrading Marantz PM7000N

[Robollox]

Edited. Diminishing returns. At what point can I draw the line where spending more money on an integrated amp/tuner have no added improvement in sound quality? OK folks, I've learned my lesson with my last purchase, £220 on a coax cable. Quick question. I want to upgrade the PM7000N. How much more would I need to spend to notice a significant difference for an integrated amp and tuner? I understand things like toroidal transformers are way better than laminated crap that some tx's are made from. Or am I better off buying separate amp and tuner? TIA again, Robin.

 

[MacCali]

Edited. Diminishing returns. At what point can I draw the line where spending more money on an integrated amp/tuner have no added improvement in sound quality? OK folks, I've learned my lesson with my last purchase, £220 on a coax cable. Quick question. I want to upgrade the PM7000N. How much more would I need to spend to notice a significant difference for an integrated amp and tuner? I understand things like toroidal transformers are way better than laminated crap that some tx's are made from. Or am I better off buying separate amp and tuner? TIA again, Robin.

Separate is always better but right now if you check out some of Amir’s reviews he has a tier list for amps. It’s on his most recent review of the Buckeye AMP.

Anything in the green tier will do.

Seems like a lot of great options from 800 to 1500 usd. Class D or A/B

 

[voodooless]

The first error is thinking that throwing money at the problem will magically solve it

In the real world, engineering solves problems. And as far as amps go, this problem was solved quite a while ago in regards to audible performance. Most amps are already very competent, and so is your PM7000N (roughly 85 SINAD at 5W). So from an audio quality standpoint, an update is largely pointless, regardless of the budget.

So what is left are things like engineering excellence, something ASR greatly values when it comes to objective performance, the longevity of components (which ASR reviews do not focus on at all), features, looks, and possibly the resale value. Features may include things like enough power. Your amp is only 60W, which may not be enough for you. In that case, a higher-powered amp may make sense.

All things considered, a new amp is not a good investment to increase the audible sound quality of your system unless what you have is totally incompetent.

Anything in the green tier will do.

His current amp would already land smack in the middle of the green zone.

 

[Robollox]

Separate is always better but right now if you check out some of Amir’s reviews he has a tier list for amps. It’s on his most recent review of the Buckeye AMP.

Anything in the green tier will do.

Seems like a lot of great options from 800 to 1500 usd. Class D or A/B

Thank you. I should've stated that I'm currently running old Acoustic Energy AE120SE's, which I intend upgrading to something like AE520's, so something with a bit of power would suit me more I think. As you can probably tell I'm no expert. Thanks again, Robin.

 

[TonyJZX]

i am an unashamed Marantz fan and the 7000 is realistically a very very fine piece of equipment as it is

however i think marantz's lineup at this level has an achilles hell and that is the fact they dont seem to care about upgrades

there's no pre-outs so you cannot even buy one of Marantz's own power amps to stack it on if you need more power

and then the only way to upgrade is to get rid of the 7000 and why would you do this when the unit is otherwise quite good

the preamp and the online options of the 7000 are pretty good

 

[delta76]

Separate is always better but right now if you check out some of Amir’s reviews he has a tier list for amps. It’s on his most recent review of the Buckeye AMP.

Anything in the green tier will do.

Seems like a lot of great options from 800 to 1500 usd. Class D or A/B

beg to differ. a good integrated solution can be just as good.

 

[MacCali]

beg to differ. a good integrated solution can be just as good.

Indeed, but the only consideration I have is the limitations. I haven’t looked, and I am not meaning it’s always the case, but one would think a quality integrated would be more expensive than simply going with a decent sub 500 dollar dac and an amp.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Anything in the green tier will do.

Pretty much disagree. Performance of an amp just cannot be summed by a single SINAD digit.

Maybe OP can tell us more about the speakers, room and listening distance. Because, as far as I know, the 7000N is not a bad amp. Not sure what exactly the OP is looking for as an "upgrade" (power headroom, features?)...

 

[delta76]

Pretty much disagree. Performance of an amp just cannot be summed by a single SINAD digit.

Maybe OP can tell us more about the speakers, room and listening distance. Because, as far as I know, the 7000N is not a bad amp. Not sure what exactly the OP is looking for as an "upgrade" (power headroom, features?)...

agreed. if that is true then everyone just need to buy LA90 and be done.
I might expand the explanation a bit, from an old beginner to new beginners:
- SINAD is of course important but after a certain SINAD level (in theory, 85dB, but you can pick 90dB to be "safe"), then power becomes the most important thing. depends on the speakers you currently have/plan to buy you might be more interested in 4 Ohm or 8 Ohm.
But that's not everything. cheaper amps tend to not fare very well in dependency load. i.e. the distortion can be different between frequencies.

Try to read Amir review carefully and you'll get it (compared to speakers' reviews, the amp reviews are way easier to read). Amir's reviews are of course not the most extensive there can be (there have been criticisms toward his reviews, and lately he added tests like reactive loads etc.), but they are a very good start.

 

[Waxx]

The first question is what do you want to improve? Is the PM7000 lacking something?

I would go for seperate amp and tuner, as tuner tech is moving fast (used to be FM, now DAB and web protocols). Get a good amp system (NAD M23 + M12 would be a good easy to use system) and a DAB tuner, that DAB Tuner could be cheap as long as it has a digital out to connect to the Nad M12. You don't need to spend a lot on that as as it's digital, it works or it doesn't work (circuit does not affect sound quality). I use a generic Hama DIT streamer, that is sold arround here. The convertors are crap, but with toslink or spdif out it does not matter.

 

[voodooless]

I would go for seperate amp and tuner, as tuner tech is moving fast (used to be FM, now DAB and web protocols). Get a good amp system (NAD M23 + M12 would be a good easy to use system) and a DAB tuner, that DAB Tuner could be cheap as long as it has a digital out to connect to the Nad M12.

The Marantz doesn't even have a tuner, so I doubt the OP would need one.

 

[Galliardist]

I think I’m done

How’s your Polish? Non-existent. Google translate for the lab commentary. Red line: On-axis (tweeter height) Black line: on-axis with grille (excellent grille, does not produce any anomalies whatsoever Brown line: 15o off-axis horizontal (can hardly tell it apart from on-axis, so good...

www.audiosciencereview.com

links to measurements for AE520 on this page.

The suggested new speaker appears on the surface to be relatively straightforward to drive: impedance doesn't go below 4 Ohm (it being a big speaker it may need a bit more than that indicates), but the PM7000N will probably work fine with it: maybe better than it does with your existing speakers, from a vague memory of the AE120 from over a decade ago). Yes, even though the AE120 has roughly the same sensitivity and a higher nominal impedance.

Of course, other speakers if chosen may be harder to drive, or you may be in a large room, at which point you need to start considering getting a bit more power.

I presume that by "tuner" you mean the streaming DAC component which is HEOS and a reasonable DAC in your amp. That comes down to, do you find HEOS OK to use or a pain in the neck, as others have reported? The streaming interface is a key consideration when it comes down to questions like this.

Anyway, I'll give you the standard advice: if you are going to change speakers, choose the speakers first and make sure you get an amp to match. Unless you can afford it all at once, the route should be: choose speakers, choose amp, buy amp, buy speakers: if you need to change the amp for the new speakers, even, that is.

What are your sources? That may make a difference to your needs as well.

 

[MacCali]

Pretty much disagree. Performance of an amp just cannot be summed by a single SINAD digit.

Maybe OP can tell us more about the speakers, room and listening distance. Because, as far as I know, the 7000N is not a bad amp. Not sure what exactly the OP is looking for as an "upgrade" (power headroom, features?)...

You definitely have a point, but take into context the situation. First we have a number of unknown variables, next the variable we do know is what I am going by.

In my assumption, where there’s plenty of room for me to be wrong, op is seeking a more resolving system and since we are an objective forum that is what he thinks might provide this. Hence my suggestion

I in no way suggested op to buy an LA90 or anything extra of my choosing or my taste.

If you recall some of my posts, about 15+ throughout the threads. I own an amp that has a sinad of -38 and actually enjoy using it. Also my preferred amp is a parasound HCA-1500, which I own two of as well as two M23’s. On the other hand I dislike what that benchmark amp does, ironically. So I definitely get where you are coming from

I don’t want someone to go out and spend money like a fool.

But any who let’s move on from making this a debate amongst ourselves, wait for this gentleman to respond and see if we can give him a hand.

Edit: also I am aware you are correcting me in a notion to help op. Absolutely don’t mind I am not an expert and I saw no one had responded to his thread and just gave him something to consider that he might not be aware of.

 

[JeremyFife]

Worth stepping back to the basics, it helps me. Your sound is affected by these things, in this order;

• Your Room
• Your speakers
• Your mood / music
• Electronics

That's why the comments are talking about not rushing into spending any money on new electronics until you assess and correct issues with your Room or Speakers.

Here's the thing; how do you know what's wrong, or if you have fixed anything when you make a change? Our ears are notoriously unreliable, and our brains just lie (we're subject to subconscious bias, nothing we can do about that).
The answer is to measure: get a measurement microphone (UMIK-1) and free software (REW) and measure the sound from your actual speakers in your actual room - your sound. People here will help interpret that.
Then, you can move furniture, move speakers, add rugs, change speakers ... and measure again and *know* what has changed. Once you understand what's going on (bass nulls, reflections, stuff like that) then you've got something to work with.
Then you can try a new amplifier, measure the change and decide if you want to keep it.

Nothing wrong with moving your furniture and speakers around and just listening, that might help, but you'll never really know.

Ultimately, if you are enjoying the music then its all going well - that's what its for!

 

[Robollox]

Separate is always better but right now if you check out some of Amir’s reviews he has a tier list for amps. It’s on his most recent review of the Buckeye AMP.

Anything in the green tier will do.

Seems like a lot of great options from 800 to 1500 usd. Class D or A/B

Sorry for being a pain. I've searched for Amir, but cannot see any reference to amp reviews. TIA, Robin.

 

[voodooless]

Sorry for being a pain. I've searched for Amir, but cannot see any reference to amp reviews. TIA, Robin.

@MacCali is referencing this review:

Buckeye NC252MP Stereo Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Buckeye NC252MP balanced stereo class D amplifier. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $575. The amp is almost the size of a loaf of bread and literally weighs nearly as much! Amazing how far amplification technology has...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And we have many more:

ASR Measurements

 

[JeremyFife]

Sorry for being a pain. I've searched for Amir, but cannot see any reference to amp reviews. TIA, Robin.

Main Review Index (for everything) https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Reviews/

Search is a bit fiddly, but if you look in 'Audio Electronics' and filter by Device Type 'Amplifier' and look for Recommended items you'll see plenty.

Remember that there are more Amplifiers out in the world than have been reviewed here and that many, many Amps are perfectly good - Electronics being a broadly solved problem now. e.g. there is a lot of love here for Yamaha amps like the AS-501 / 701 for good performance and reliability. If an Amp has been reviewed here and recommended then it's worth a look (do check the commentary - there can be issues with new products until early problems are ironed out).

 

[Robollox]

Separate is always better but right now if you check out some of Amir’s reviews he has a tier list for amps. It’s on his most recent review of the Buckeye AMP.

Anything in the green tier will do.

Seems like a lot of great options from 800 to 1500 usd. Class D or A/B

The first error is thinking that throwing money at the problem will magically solve it

In the real world, engineering solves problems. And as far as amps go, this problem was solved quite a while ago in regards to audible performance. Most amps are already very competent, and so is your PM7000N (roughly 85 SINAD at 5W). So from an audio quality standpoint, an update is largely pointless, regardless of the budget.

So what is left are things like engineering excellence, something ASR greatly values when it comes to objective performance, the longevity of components (which ASR reviews do not focus on at all), features, looks, and possibly the resale value. Features may include things like enough power. Your amp is only 60W, which may not be enough for you. In that case, a higher-powered amp may make sense.

All things considered, a new amp is not a good investment to increase the audible sound quality of your system unless what you have is totally incompetent.


His current amp would already land smack in the middle of the green zone.

After a lot of deliberate thought, yes, I want to feel more engaged in my music, brought up with it in my family. I really, really want the AE520's, my AE120SE's are not 'quite' as engaging as I like/prefer. Thank you anyone who can guide me. Robin.

 

[JeffS7444]

Re separates vs integrated: The only real demonstrable differences that I've experienced are:

• At some point, all-in-ones can become unwieldy, and my old Marantz 4400 quadraphonic receiver didn't fit my shelving unit, and
• Used as a preamplifier, I had to keep cables from the pre-out jacks of my Advent 300 short, as output impedance was high. 1 meter was fine, but 3 meters, not so much. It really could have benefited from an added line driver circuit, but that would have raised the cost. I noted the same limitation using the pre-out jacks of an NAD receiver. Whereas separate preamplifiers will usually (but not always!) incorporate such a curcuit, allowing them to handle longer runs of cabling.

 

[JeffS7444]

Also, it's best not to confuse "upgrades" with simple GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome)!