The point of diminishing for speakers is...?

[FrantzM]

It depends entirely on the room the speakers will be in and the specific needs being addressed. I'm in a small enough room that Wilson Audio towers will not be an option. It's gonna be desktop audio. If I want full range there's gonna be a sub. No point in too much power. Lots of absorbent materials in the room, so additional acoustic materials would probably be a waste of money. I could spend more than the $20 I spent for the speakers and $50 for the sub, but any move would be lateral: different, but not necessarily better. $50 for the AVR, $140 for the DAC, about the same for the headphone amp that doubles as a line level pre/DAC link to the AVR. Think I'll stand pat.

Was with you for a moment but ... Even in palatial room Wilson Audio towers would not be an option for me. There are objectively better for much less money. If you aske me and those who know .

I believe it is room /environment dependent. Not music genre dependent. There is a school of thoughts that assigns music genres to frequency range. I do not subscribe to this. You will find the entire audible spectrum in most musical genres.e.g. It is quite an en experience to listen to a solo barytone on a full range system ... Accurate Audio reproduction has its own set of requirements that include:
Sufficient SPL within the listening volume/space
Smooth and extended frequency response from say 50 to 15,000
Distortion that remains under audibility at realistic SPL and within the frequency spectrum.

There are other among these smooth directivity or at the very least, Controlled Directivity.

Another thing is the level of expertise of the audiophile and/or the amount of work/effort he's willing to put in setting up the system. And this moves the goalpost. Some will get excellent result with a pair of Genelec + SVS subs + DSP/EQ.. other may be more at ease with something like GLM, thus Genelec subwoofers or other semi-automatic DRC/DSP/EQ. Some are willing to pay for convenience, some know enough not to .

I would say that $12 K these days is the point of diminishing return for a full range speaker system: pair + subs+ DSP/EQ., in most rooms this side of a 30 square meters room with 3 meters ceiling.. (320 square feet with 10 feet ceiling)
I hasten to add that it doesn't mean that one has to spend that much for an accurate audio system. Simply that past that amount....

 

[Yasuo]

According to the law of diminishing returns, the best ratio is going to be at the bottom of the price scale. $9 Sony headphones, or whatever the speaker equivalent is... and I would say the theory should hold up alright, even it it oversimplifies a few specific examples, e.g. not accounting for overpriced junk.

For instance if we consider gsp1971's post, then the "best" would be ELAC DBR-62 as for 520 euros it offers 75% (score?), although to be honest I would choose the Polk R200 (not because of the 5% diffence, but just because I like it for some reason and I fell I could afford it)

 

[Kal Rubinson]

The volumen in my pre amp 0-99 3vrms - > power amp is purifi eigentakt eval1

OK but it really does not tell us much about output to the speakers or their output to the room.

 

[Robin L]

Was with you for a moment but ... Even in palatial room Wilson Audio towers would not be an option for me. There are objectively better for much less money. If you aske me and those who know .

I believe it is room /environment dependent. Not music genre dependent. There is a school of thoughts that assigns music genres to frequency range. I do not subscribe to this. You will find the entire audible spectrum in most musical genres.e.g. It is quite an en experience to listen to a solo barytone on a full range system ... Accurate Audio reproduction has its own set of requirements that include:
Sufficient SPL within the listening volume/space
Smooth and extended frequency response from say 50 to 15,000
Distortion that remains under audibility at realistic SPL and within the frequency spectrum.

There are other among these smooth directivity or at the very least, Controlled Directivity.

Another thing is the level of expertise of the audiophile and/or the amount of work/effort he's willing to put in setting up the system. And this moves the goalpost. Some will get excellent result with a pair of Genelec + SVS subs + DSP/EQ.. other may be more at ease with something like GLM, thus Genelec subwoofers or other semi-automatic DRC/DSP/EQ. Some are willing to pay for convenience, some know enough not to .

I would say that $12 K these days is the point of diminishing return for a full range speaker system: pair + subs+ DSP/EQ., in most rooms this side of a 30 square meters room with 3 meters ceiling.. (320 square feet with 10 feet ceiling)
I hasten to add that it doesn't mean that one has to spend that much for an accurate audio system. Simply that past that amount....

The $20 speakers are a/d/s 400s, really not bad, relatively flat frequency response, nice, sharp cutoff of bass below 100 hz, the powered sub is something from Sonance, 10" driver. Judging from descending bass scales, bass goes low, is even and consistent. Imaging is as good as I've ever got from speakers, albeit small scaled. Can't fit the Vienna Philharmonic in a 10' x 10' x 8' room and not give up something. I could easily imagine spending $10,000 and making a lateral move.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

OK but it really does not tell us much about output to the speakers or their output to the room.

Sorry but I don't have any form to give you a better idea, i don't have any mic like umik1, there is not much measurements from R7..., also is a bit obvious a tower gonna output more than the bookshelf ( R300 ), but the difference in my pre-amp and in volume is a looooooooooooot
The R3's can go up to 105dB at 1m, so i don't know what can do this tower.



I wish if somebody review the R7, its a very interesting tower

 

[Helicopter]

For instance if we consider gsp1971's post, then the "best" would be ELAC DBR-62 as for 520 euros it offers 75% (score?), although to be honest I would choose the Polk R200 (not because of the 5% diffence, but just because I like it for some reason and I fell I could afford it)

If we're shopping smart for value according to that chart, we need to skip over everything that is not the best by its price point, which just leaves DBR62, R200, R3, F208 and R5... not sure if that's enough for a trend. Either way, you get 18% improvement when you move up 2800% in price.

 

[Foulchet]

When you are satisfied with the sound signature I guess it is a reasonable decision to stop there. Of course you can upgrade later, but as long as you are happy this this the thresold. To be honest my favorite sounding loudspeakers and headphones are not the most expensive I own (and actually almost the cheapest for headphones) in the long run. For loudspeakers I feel very good when I hear cheap Cabasse MT3 Antigua (I do not remember the price but is is below 500 or even 400 euros the pair).
Loudspeakers or headphones choices are highly subjective, and must remain in that realm in my opinion vs amps, dacs, etc.
Plus honestly playing just +/- 1 or 2 dB setting for bass or highs on amps can correct the small thing which can eventually bother you so there is no need to spend that much in my opinion unless you do not think about « diminishing return » but about what purchase makes you feel happy (which might be tricky but that how life and human brain is).

 

[deprogrammed]

Kids these days don’t know how lucky they are, back in the day speakers could only go up to 11.
View attachment 140883

Had to.

 

[Haint]

A quick chart, price in euros vs. score.
Data from https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/index.html
Once you reach the score threshold of 80%, it's good enough, it seems.

View attachment 140935

Why does Pierre's scoring calculation differ from MZKM's? For example the M105 is one of the highest scoring passives in MK's calculation (the highest with sub if I'm not mistaken), but somewhat middling in Pierre's.

 

[q3cpma]

Something like JBL's LS305 or Kali's LP6 with a simple sub (LSR310S or Kali WS12) is probably the point where you reach best value. I'd say that the next plateau is 3-way: IN-5 or IN-8 with subwoofer.
If you take another route and say that automated digital room correction and subwoofer integration is essential, you're probably looking at KEF's R3 + a Dirac AVR + a good sub; Genelec is too expensive to answer the question, as is Neumann which also lacks a sub that can be used outside nearfield scenarios.

 

[thefsb]

I think it depends on the application.

Anything from a Bose Soundlink Mini up to PMC BB6 XBD-A might be where the diminishing returns kick in. One is good for listening to Rogan while you're brushing your teeth, the other for when you're recording or mastering a symphony orchestra recording.

 

[q3cpma]

I think it depends on the application.

Anything from a Bose Soundlink Mini up to PMC BB6 XBD-A might be where the diminishing returns kick in. One is good for listening to Rogan while you're brushing your teeth, the other for when you're recording or mastering a symphony orchestra recording.

I wouldn't use PMC for such an example.

 

[thefsb]

I wouldn't use PMC for such an example.

What about brushing teeth?

 

[Wes]

cheap ear buds are where it's at

 

[JeffS7444]

Particularly for low frequencies, I think the room - and one's neighbors! - become a limiting factor.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Particularly for low frequencies, I think the room - and one's neighbors! - become a limiting factor.

YESSS XDDDDD

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

If a speaker reasonably follows Harmon curve coupled with Dirac or Anthem Room Correction you should be satisfied. At all costs, avoid speakers that induce ear fatigue. Harmon curve does not fatigue.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I guess it depends on how much you earn. But if you asking what's the best price/performance ratio I'd like to find out as well.

Not really. I am old man. I can afford Revel. Question of priorities. Amir's tests of low priced Harmon curve speakers are consistent. But I will stick to passive speakers powered by A/B corrected by Anthem Room. I just cannot accept powered JBL monitor with cheap Class D screwed on.

 

[gsp1971]

Why does Pierre's scoring calculation differ from MZKM's? For example the M105 is one of the highest scoring passives in MK's calculation (the highest with sub if I'm not mistaken), but somewhat middling in Pierre's.

Not sure of the differences. I tried the same chart using the standard score with subwoofer from here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...4i_eE1JS-JQYSZy7kCQZMKtRnjTOn578fYZPJ/pubhtml

It doesn't change the results much. This was a quick & dirty chart anyway, did it in 15' just to contribute to the discussion, so don't take it at face value as it only contains the few selected speakers for which spinorama data exists and have been tested primarily here at ASR.

Besides, people will look at different things when selecting a speaker depending on their individual circumstances. Some people look for bass extension, others for max SPL capabilities, others for PIR, others for on-axis response, or Listening Window, etc.
And, of course, size and looks matter as well.

But in my mind, the chart shows one thing: that one doesn't need to spend more than, say, 3,000 (USD or EUR) for a very well engineered pair of speakers. One can spend the rest of the funds towards other things, i.e. a good powerful amp, room treatment, etc.

I am convinced that a very satisfying system can be had for under 5K, including source, DAC, amp, & speakers.

 

[Newman]

$8,000 which IIRC is the price for Dutch2 8c - they rank in the top class according to Stereopile.

Being rated by Stereophile means a speaker is already way, way above the price point of diminishing returns….. and it still might not be any good.