The point of diminishing for speakers is...?

[gsp1971]

It's hard to define the point of diminishing returns. It depends on tastes, how rich you are and what your listening space is like. In a flimsily built wood frame apartment building one hits that point fast because high dynamic range and bass extension, the two things which are costly, are lease breakers.

We all know there's lots of expensive stuff out there which is total BS.

Perhaps for people with means, no neighbor problems and enough space the $22,000 Salon 2 represents the top. Beyond that it's just pissing money away.

Everyone has quoted a different dollar figure for the point of diminishing returns, depending on tastes, circumstances, wealth, etc, etc.

But the common ground is that there IS a point of diminishing returns, even if it differs from person to person.

 

[redshift]

My point was that sound quality is largely unrelated to price within the intended operating envelope, so the diminishing return line is flat to begin with, but that sound quality wasn't the driver of price in any case.

But if my example is too rich for your blood, then subtract a zero or two. I learned when talking to wristwatch collectors not to underestimate the financial reach of "the average consumer" when the target is impressing their buddies.

Rick "not immune from this effect" Denney

I find it weird to buy stuff for impressing on others. I guess it is subjectivist ego projection?

However if some schmuck impresses me with a pair of well measuring and sounding speakers, I might splash out. Objectivist ego projection perhaps?

What did Jung have to say about this?

 

[redshift]

Everyone has quoted a different dollar figure for the point of diminishing returns, depending on tastes, circumstances, wealth, etc, etc.

But the common ground is that there IS a point of diminishing returns, even if it differs from person to person.

If you buy your stuff based on a stated objective and subjective performance metric, that point is irrelevant.

I.e. built to a spec at a price.

 

[Haint]

Not sure of the differences. I tried the same chart using the standard score with subwoofer from here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...4i_eE1JS-JQYSZy7kCQZMKtRnjTOn578fYZPJ/pubhtml

It doesn't change the results much. This was a quick & dirty chart anyway, did it in 15' just to contribute to the discussion, so don't take it at face value as it only contains the few selected speakers for which spinorama data exists and have been tested primarily here at ASR.

Besides, people will look at different things when selecting a speaker depending on their individual circumstances. Some people look for bass extension, others for max SPL capabilities, others for PIR, others for on-axis response, or Listening Window, etc.
And, of course, size and looks matter as well.

But in my mind, the chart shows one thing: that one doesn't need to spend more than, say, 3,000 (USD or EUR) for a very well engineered pair of speakers. One can spend the rest of the funds towards other things, i.e. a good powerful amp, room treatment, etc.

I am convinced that a very satisfying system can be had for under 5K, including source, DAC, amp, & speakers.

I wasn't questioning your post or chart gsp, just wondering what Pierre's scoring is based on and how/why they're different from MZKM's.

 

[gsp1971]

One more thing.
I can't remember on which thread, but there is a youtube video about members of the Audiophile Club of Athens and the extremes they have gone to in order to achieve sonic perfection.
Please find it and watch it, if you can.
Watch the guy who has messed about with the electricity grid and keeps saying "it needs to have 235 V constant all the time, all the time".
And when the film shooter asks them how much money they have spent overall, you can feel the embarrassment in their responses.

Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/3f3vrn

 

[gsp1971]

I wasn't questioning your post or chart gsp, just wondering what Pierre's scoring is based on and how/why they're different from MZKM's.

Perhaps it is the score with subwoofer divided by the max score any speaker can get?
Hence the rating out of 100?
Just thinking out loud

 

[carewser]

The Audiophiliac doesn't believe in the law of diminishing returns but then as a salesman he had a vested interest in convincing people to buy the most expensive gear possible

 

[rdenney]

I find it weird to buy stuff for impressing on others. I guess it is subjectivist ego projection?

However if some schmuck impresses me with a pair of well measuring and sounding speakers, I might splash out. Objectivist ego projection perhaps?

What did Jung have to say about this?

After your first sentence, I was about to say...the desire to impress others is orthogonal to these two camps in the audio world. The main difference is who we might be trying to impress and maybe what we think will impress them.

But we need to look at our cars, homes, personal accoutrements, sound systems, and other hobbies--maybe art on the walls, musical instruments, fishing rods, boats, planes, RV's, our ability to drink a double-IPA without grimacing, the age and exclusivity of that bottle of single-malt, the test equipment on our hobby bench, the tools in our shed, and on and on--before we say we are "above" trying to impress other people. It's hard-wired into the human mechanism.

Rick "unlearned on the topic but observant and self-aware nevertheless" Denney

 

[redshift]

The Audiophiliac doesn't believe in the law of diminishing returns but then as a salesman he had a vested interest in convincing people to buy the most expensive gear possible

Want to have the real deal playing in your living room?

There’s no diminishing returns:
https://www.bookingentertainment.com/artists/classic_rock/Rolling_Stones.php

Not sure about the music though.

 

[dkinric]

. . . On the other hand, this is a demonstration of someone who broke through the point of diminishing returns for speakers. Money was no object: he built a room for his "stereo" to maximize potential sound quality and custom built his own audio system. This is the point of no return:

TIL the world's greatest stereo system is in my hometown, about 10 miles from where I write this. Maybe I should show up at his door with a six pack and a couple of cds. If I get in, I'll be sure to share here.

 

[Wes]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns

 

[redshift]

After your first sentence, I was about to say...the desire to impress others is orthogonal to these two camps in the audio world. The main difference is who we might be trying to impress and maybe what we think will impress them.

But we need to look at our cars, homes, personal accoutrements, sound systems, and other hobbies--maybe art on the walls, musical instruments, fishing rods, boats, planes, RV's, our ability to drink a double-IPA without grimacing, the age and exclusivity of that bottle of single-malt, the test equipment on our hobby bench, the tools in our shed, and on and on--before we say we are "above" trying to impress other people. It's hard-wired into the human mechanism.

Rick "unlearned on the topic but observant and self-aware nevertheless" Denney

Yeah, I have observed that too. I guess the ego is wired to mute that obnoxious touchy feelz of envy.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Lots of ways to approach the question. My personal opinion born of experience is quality is a relationship at 4th power of the money spent (assuming good design and not BS marketing). Or it takes 16 times the money for twice the subjective experience in quality.

The other way I look at it is a pair of JBL LSR305s and a good $150 DAC give you a sub $500 system which is awfully darn good. There is more quality to be had, but it is diminishing rapidly above the price of this system. Futher this low priced system isn't heavily compromised.

 

[Blumlein 88]

TIL the world's greatest stereo system is in my hometown, about 10 miles from where I write this. Maybe I should show up at his door with a six pack and a couple of cds. If I get in, I'll be sure to share here.

What is with all the grandfather clocks? I wonder if they sync up while running?

 

[dkinric]

What is with all the grandfather clocks? I wonder if they sync up while running?

Those are the external clocks for his DAC.
In all seriousness, the dedication and passion he has for this hobby of ours is impressive. The gentlemen is near 80 and has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's, but at least he gets to spend the rest of his days in pure audio bliss.

 

[Robin L]

What is with all the grandfather clocks? I wonder if they sync up while running?

I don't know for sure, but I get the impression that there are a lot of items that aid dispersion. I've only got half-way through the hour-long video, but it seems all of the choices related to sound quality. I'm sure there's overkill, probably inaudible tweaks. But overall, all that effort probably resulted in about as good a sound quality that one can get from recorded music.

My radio announcer Uncle Charlie collected Railroad clocks, the half-length version of the grandfather clock. All thirty would go off at the same time at midnight. Crazy.

 

[gsp1971]

TIL the world's greatest stereo system is in my hometown, about 10 miles from where I write this. Maybe I should show up at his door with a six pack and a couple of cds. If I get in, I'll be sure to share here.

If you do manage to get in, tell him that his system sounds a bit veiled in the midrange.

 

[dkinric]

If you do manage to get in, tell him that his system sounds a bit veiled in the midrange.

I'll ask him where the loudness button is, that'll really take it up a notch, trust me.

 

[redshift]

Lots of ways to approach the question. My personal opinion born of experience is quality is a relationship at 4th power of the money spent (assuming good design and not BS marketing). Or it takes 16 times the money for twice the subjective experience in quality.

The other way I look at it is a pair of JBL LSR305s and a good $150 DAC give you a sub $500 system which is awfully darn good. There is more quality to be had, but it is diminishing rapidly above the price of this system. Futher this low priced system isn't heavily compromised.

Yes, system defining metrics could simply be the size and practicality of the gear. I know it is for me.

 

[redshift]

I'll ask him where the loudness button is, that'll really take it up a notch, trust me.

What’s wrong with loudness?