Technics SL 1210GR2 Turntable

[anmpr1]

The Hanpin motor:

Denon used to use a Quartz PLL along with a tape head reading a magnetic strip that went around the inside of the platter. At least on their higher end decks. I had it on a DP-75. I guess it worked fine, but I can't say it was better than anything else. One thing, if the inside of the platter was scored, or the tape head became misaligned, you no doubt had problems. Getting any of those fixed today is something I can't imagine.

Not unlike Hanpin single source machines, my guess is that the Sony/Denon/JVC designs were OEM from the same Japanese factory too, with variations depending upon whatever each company cosmetically specified. They all used the same tech (servo arms, magnetic Quartz PLL speed control), and that had to come under a single patent and then licensed.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Denon used to have very elaborately built turntables of the high-end class in their programme. Recently, Hanpin parts from China have been used, for example in the Denon DP-1300 MKII, released in 2008, which I linked to above. I don't really know the latest models like the DP-3000NE anymore, because I stopped being interested in such turntables an did no own research. You would have to take a look inside to see if the electronics seem modern, comparable to Technics.

 

[anmpr1]

Denon used to have very elaborately built turntables of the high-end class in their programme. Recently, Hanpin parts from China have been used, for example in the Denon DP-1300 MKII, released in 2008, which I linked to above. I don't really know the latest models like the DP-3000NE anymore, because I stopped being interested in such turntables an did no own research. You would have to take a look inside to see if the electronics seem modern, comparable to Technics.

There was a thread here (I think--might have been another forum) where someone listed various Japanese products from the heyday of audio that were OEM, and each company just put their name on variations of the same or similar model. Cassette tape decks were a big one, most said to be farmed out.

Nowadays, I imagine that manufacturing in Japan is too expensive for anything but high priced spread, so it's all moved to Indonesia, Malaysia, or China. But that's not a bad thing, for the consumer. Not everything cheap will fall apart.

Anecdote: most electric guitars are made by a few OEMs and then branded by whomever. Cor-Tek, Samick, World and so forth. Fender recently had a 20% off sale, so FedEx delivered a Squire Sonic Strat, costing $160.00 (made by Cor-Tek Indonesia). I thought, "It's probably not going to be too good, but I'll load it up with aftermarket kit, and use it as a 'project' guitar." But I was totally impressed with the QC, playability and sound. I mean, for one hundred and sixty dollars (shipping included), and you know Fender made money on the deal! I don't know how they do it.

So I don't discount something sourced from an operation like Hanpin, necessarily. I just don't know.

 

[ban25]

I think if you are blessed (cursed) with perfect pitch it is a possible issue. But I'm just guessing.

I have a mechanical record player (non-servo synchronous motor driving an idler wheel coupled to a machined brass shaft turning the inside of the platter) and you can easily watch speed variation with a strobe, but I don't hear wobbling, even on piano music. Drift is slow, so I don't notice that either, over the course of a record. Maybe test tones might show it more.

That said, I think any quartz regulated DD is not going to have audible speed drift/wow and flutter.

I recently watched a YT video from the guys at OMA, who sell a DD that costs as much as a house in the suburbs. They claim that their special speed regulated motor (evidently sourced from an ICBM gyroscopic inertial navigation system--or something as exotic) is so rotationally precise that one can easily hear minute variations when compared to the latest and greatest Panasonic SP-10. Especially when coupled with the motor's special and hard to get purple colored tube rectifier. So I guess if you have OMA ears you might want that.

In my own experience, I switched from a belt-drive "audiophile" style deck to a DD after experiencing a maddening amount of W+F induced pitch shift in classical records, specifically violin concertos with long sustained notes. Nothing would fix it, not a new belt, more isolation, nothing... When you look at the W+F specs and see that many of today's belt-drive tables are rated for 0.1% or worse, it basically means that pitch shift is on the verge of audibility straight out of the factory.

I have no such issues with my SL-1200MK7, it's rock solid.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Nowadays, I imagine that manufacturing in Japan is too expensive for anything but high priced spread, so it's all moved to Indonesia, Malaysia, or China. But that's not a bad thing, for the consumer. Not everything cheap will fall apart.

All true! My Technics SL1210 GR is Made in Malaysia. The first batch was made in Japan, but my order was to late to get one of these.

I wanted only to compare the drives of the new DDs from Denon and Technics in the actual discussion. The Denon motors (as seen in my pictures) are of an older design, like the Technics 12xx and its clones formertimes had. All new Technics models have improved ironless drives and achieve quite high S/N values.

 

[jquest55]

any reccos for a replacement tonearm? *affordable*

 

[computer-audiophile]

any reccos for a replacement tonearm? *affordable*

The Technics 12xx DD's are probably already among the more mature and popular products than average. This also applies to the tone arm. It has all been tried and found to be useful. Why tinker with it? Have you had bad experiences with this tonearm? Or where do you want to go?
Most of the time, other tonearms look unfavourable on these machines, imo.
It is an icon when it comes to design. Of course, you might not like it because you've seen it so often that it's boring.

 

[jquest55]

The Technics 12xx DD's are probably already among the more mature and popular products than average. This also applies to the tone arm. It has all been tried and found to be useful. Why tinker with it? Have you had bad experiences with this tonearm? Or where do you want to go?
Most of the time, other tonearms look unfavourable on these machines, imo.
It is an icon when it comes to design. Of course, you might not like it because you've seen it so often that it's boring.

Well, it might be just me, but compared to the tonearm I had on the MK2, it feels flimsier, lighter, cheaper? I've read similar complaints, so I was wondering what/if there are any options out there...

 

[computer-audiophile]

Well, it might be just me, but compared to the tonearm I had on the MK2, it feels flimsier, lighter, cheaper? I've read similar complaints, so I was wondering what/if there are any options out there...

If it's just that, you could go for the Pioneer PLX 1000, which is also built with the best Hanpin components I've seen so far. It has the same type of arm, but heavier. It also has a rubber hose inside, which is supposed to dampen it. In my opinion, the PLX 1000 is a very good turntable that is not that expensive. S/N is approx 70 dB which is ok. Price around 650 Euros.

EDIT Picture added:

 

[mhardy6647]

In 1978 my father purchased one SA-500 receiver from 'FedRrated' in Hollywood CA.
He could have picked up an SA-700 or SA-1000 but he got the "55wpc" one.
Dad made a wrong Technics choice! (deceased 18 yrs)

Well - there was also a significant cost increase from the 500 to the 700 to the 1000. He may have made the best choice vis-a-vis room and board vs. a couple of dB more power... (?)

 

[G|force]

Wow, that's a blast from my past! He was driving small a/d/s 2-ways so 55wpc was the appropriate choice if not the sexy one.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I think if you are blessed (cursed) with perfect pitch it is a possible issue. But I'm just guessing.

I have a mechanical record player (non-servo synchronous motor driving an idler wheel coupled to a machined brass shaft turning the inside of the platter) and you can easily watch speed variation with a strobe, but I don't hear wobbling, even on piano music. Drift is slow, so I don't notice that either, over the course of a record. Maybe test tones might show it more.

That said, I think any quartz regulated DD is not going to have audible speed drift/wow and flutter.

I recently watched a YT video from the guys at OMA, who sell a DD that costs as much as a house in the suburbs. They claim that their special speed regulated motor (evidently sourced from an ICBM gyroscopic inertial navigation system--or something as exotic) is so rotationally precise that one can easily hear minute variations when compared to the latest and greatest Panasonic SP-10. Especially when coupled with the motor's special and hard to get purple colored tube rectifier. So I guess if you have OMA ears you might want that.

My reason for looking is the removable headshell. Looking at the options available, my Performance DC would be "perfect" with a different tonearm. The Sorane SA1-2 https://mockingbirddistribution.com/sorane/sa1-2/
seems to check all the boxes. Very rigid, high mass for low to medium compliance cartridges, change to lighter headshell for higher compliance, has azimuth adjustment via headshell. The ability to change the balance level of the main counterweight from inline with the arm to below the arm. Unique bearings that act like a unipivot with 2 contact points. Only downside is cost, but so is the 1210G.

 

[computer-audiophile]

my Performance DC would be "perfect" with a different tonearm

Nothing is really perfect, but the S/N of your turntable seems to be sensationally good.
I can't imagine that you would get much further with a different tonearm. However, I also bought my Technics because of the removable headshell feature. I also had a Project The Classic with a carbon arm the same time. I also liked this one sound-wise, but I couldn't change the pickup easily.

 

[JP]

Do you know the limit of what to be concerned with - speed deviation and or W&F?

IIRC, NAB threshold for W&F was 0.1% DIN. Speed accuracy is typically less critical unless you've perfect pitch or are doing laybacks for paired comparisons. For a closed-loop control system I'd expect to see W&F in the 0.0X% range (whether DIN or JIS) and drift in the 0.00X% range. Less than that is poor execution. What's ultimately audible depends.

Nothing is really perfect, but the S/N of your turntable seems to be sensationally good.

It is? CA don't list any related spec.

 

[computer-audiophile]

It is? CA don't list any related spec.

https://www.fono.de/clearaudio-performance-dc

DIN IEC 98 nach Verfahren A / 92 dB

 

[JP]

https://www.fono.de/clearaudio-performance-dc

DIN IEC 98 nach Verfahren A / 92 dB

That's interesting as the manufacturer doesn't list a rumble spec on their website, on the product brochure, or in the user manual.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Another anecdote about Technics and Hanpin Clones: A few years ago I bought a DJ-Tech SL1300 MK6 turntable to play around with. I think I only paid about 250 euros for a new one on special offer. It also consisted of the same Hanpin core components as the Denon DP1300 II, which was incomparable more expensive. It was rated at 70 dB S/N, which is the top level of this category. Many of the clones with other brand names are worse. But I managed to make it even quieter by applying some tuning measures to it.

It had a pretty "unique" design and was surprisingly solidly built, which you might not think. It could have been actually just right for me in that respect, because I like special things that not everyone has.

It was stupid of me to sell it, my subsequent devices won't get me anywhere further. And the Technics SL 1210GR I have now is really nothing special.
Unfortunately, it's no longer available to buy brand new, otherwise I'd be mad enough to buy the same one again.

 

[Bob from Florida]

IIRC, NAB threshold for W&F was 0.1% DIN. Speed accuracy is typically less critical unless you've perfect pitch or are doing laybacks for paired comparisons. For a closed-loop control system I'd expect to see W&F in the 0.0X% range (whether DIN or JIS) and drift in the 0.00X% range. Less than that is poor execution. What's ultimately audible depends.



It is? CA don't list any related spec.

The Performance DC is not closed loop as far as I know. CA did not start doing the optical feedback until the Ovation Table - which is considerably more $$$. I just check the speed with the speed utility on my new Waxwing preamp - a touch fast at 33.71 RPM. There is a speed adjustment pot for each speed that I will touch up the speed sometime this weekend.

 

[Bob from Florida]

That's interesting as the manufacturer doesn't list a rumble spec on their website, on the product brochure, or in the user manual.

I also find their listed data interesting. CA must know the details but choose not to reveal. Even finding the effective mass of their tonearms is not easy to find. If that number is true, I would suspect the Ceramic Magnetic Bearing has something to do with it.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I also find their listed data interesting. CA must know the details but choose not to reveal. Even finding the effective mass of their tonearms is not easy to find. If that number is true, I would suspect the Ceramic Magnetic Bearing has something to do with it.

How fast is the spin up time of your CA turntable? That's an important point for me. I like the jerky, lightning-fast switching on and off of the powerful DD motors at the touch of a button and going immediately to the setpoint speed without anything on the device wobbling in the slightest.

This was particularly pronounced with the DJ-Tech turntable with it's high torque motor e.g. This quick start/stop had already impressed me in the seventies, especially with my old SP10. The Technics 1210GR also starts quite fast, although obviously not as extreme. When I think of the earlier belt-driven turntables, e.g. the Thorens with sub-chassis, TD160 etc., it was an undignified wobble until they hesitantly got going. I know many other turntables that take a long time to spin up.