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Technics SL 1210GR2 Turntable

Bob from Florida

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Technics ups the ante come December.

 

thewas

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Video description:

At a hotel adjacent to company headquarters, Bill Voss, Technics' American Business Development Manager, introduced the new $2199 "next gen" SL1200GR turntable featuring a revolutionary new Delta Sigma drive control technique said to produce smooth, accurate rotational stability and a new power supply similar to the one used in the top of the line SL-1000R, said to produce an exceptionally low noise floor. . Based on the informal listening session featuring a complete Technics system it was clear that the new 'table is noticeably quiet and fitted with an Ortofon 2M Black, produced a smooth, pleasing, "musical" sound. The system consisted of the SU-G700M2-S Digital Integrated Amplifier+ buiilt-in MM/MC phono preamp, SBG90M2 Floorstanding Loudspeakers. Despite no room treatment in the hotel room the sound was rich, warm, and pleasingly detailed reproducing a 1980 Technics-produced record featuring the LA4.
 

thewas

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On non tangential arms there is no single optimal alignment but all are different compromises, for example some with smaller tracking errors on the mid of the disc and some on the end, I was also surprised how different the position and angle of my cartridge on my MK2 was when I used a Baerwald geometry compared to the Technics 52 mm one but it cannot be said it is always better.
 

restorer-john

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@GPJ Is the horizontal bearing support material any different on the new table to the 1200mk3? Have they upgraded to aluminium from the moulded plastic? And had anyone looked at mass differences between the old gimbal (cast) and the new one, which seems to be significantly more 'chunky' and likely heavier.

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vs
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restorer-john

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Technics really focused on motor "cogging" as a sales pitch for the GR. The original has legendary speed control and I personally don't experience the "cogging" issue.

Technics was smart. They realized the non-existant 'cogging' issues perpetuated by certain low tech belt drive makers and retailers was permanently attached to direct drive turntables since the 1970s. No matter what they did, it was something that wouldn't go away. There hasn't been measurable cogging in DDs since the early 1970s.

So, instead, they embraced it, spoke of it and said they'd solved it completely. If they'd done that in 1975, they would have killed belt drive completely and owned the market more than they did.

Thing is, many belt drive turntables have motors that have extreme amounts of cogging. It manifests as flutter in poorly decoupled systems.
 

dlaloum

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The absence of damping seems a major missed opportunity - still KAB will do well with their aftermarket damper...
 

restorer-john

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And what is this?

The first stage of Technics’ new generation of direct drive turntables with an improved motor-drive circuit centered on the newly developed ΔΣ-Drive (Delta Sigma Drive)

Some form of ulra low distortion precision waveform drive derived from power DACs? Or sophisticated feedback controlling the drive system/coils? Or just a well-used marketing moniker?

edit: I went off to have a dig and yes, I was on the right track:

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1698278210067.png

 
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JP

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From the components on the board, that’s basically the SP-10R, though with a different Renesas uC.
 

anmpr1

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The absence of damping seems a major missed opportunity - still KAB will do well with their aftermarket damper...

The KAB device is not what you'd call a precision instrument. But to be fair, it is not just the KAB; any outrigger silicone damping is going to have similar problems to the KAB.

First, damping provided by the silicone gunk will vary, depending upon the ambient temperature. The oil fits in an open trough and its viscosity will change, depending.

Second, there is no real indication of how much oil you should put in the trough, and how to calibrate the amount for a specific damping factor you might want. The instructions just advise to fill it about half-way, not too much and not too little. So the end-user is faced with a Goldilocks dilemma.

Third, the silicone may lose elasticity over time due to evaporation, and/or contamination. That is, the gunk will become thicker and the arm will lose its ability to pivot in a worse case.

Fourth, there is no way to defeat the device in order to make a resonance comparison between IN or OUT of the system. If I am not mistaken, some devices were hinged (I think the old SME and Micro paddles) and could easily be lifted out of the oil. You can't do that with the KAB. Once installed it stays put.

Fifth, it is relatively easy to install, but a mess to remove, because silicone gunk will spill all over the arm base. Not easy to clean up.

How do I know? I have one in a drawer somewhere.

I'm not saying the device may not be helpful for situations, but it is difficult to make comparisons, and the above should be taken into consideration if you are going to buy and install it. That said, for a 'tweak', the device is not particularly expensive, and is well machined, sits unobtrusively, and more or less matches the arm's color. Once installed it does not interfere with cuing.

Historical note: Technics arms from the '80s were more sophisticated than what they now offer. EPA 100/250/500 series arms featured integral counterweight damping (a combination of spring/oil/magnetic resistance--a more sophisticated application of the old Dual wobbly-bobbly counterweights on their 704/721 series record players).

In addition, the 250/500 series offered changeable arm wands allowing users to match cartridge compliance to arm mass. I suppose the tooling for that tech was long gone, and Panasonic didn't want to spend whatever dollars it would take to make it new.

The only downside I heard was that the 100 series used synthetic ruby ball bearings that were fragile and prone to cracking if mishandled.
 

dlaloum

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The KAB device is not what you'd call a precision instrument. But to be fair, it is not just the KAB; any outrigger silicone damping is going to have similar problems to the KAB.

First, damping provided by the silicone gunk will vary, depending upon the ambient temperature. The oil fits in an open trough and its viscosity will change, depending.

Second, there is no real indication of how much oil you should put in the trough, and how to calibrate the amount for a specific damping factor you might want. The instructions just advise to fill it about half-way, not too much and not too little. So the end-user is faced with a Goldilocks dilemma.

Third, the silicone may lose elasticity over time due to evaporation, and/or contamination. That is, the gunk will become thicker and the arm will lose its ability to pivot in a worse case.

Fourth, there is no way to defeat the device in order to make a resonance comparison between IN or OUT of the system. If I am not mistaken, some devices were hinged (I think the old SME and Micro paddles) and could easily be lifted out of the oil. You can't do that with the KAB. Once installed it stays put.

Fifth, it is relatively easy to install, but a mess to remove, because silicone gunk will spill all over the arm base. Not easy to clean up.

How do I know? I have one in a drawer somewhere.

I'm not saying the device may not be helpful for situations, but it is difficult to make comparisons, and the above should be taken into consideration if you are going to buy and install it. That said, for a 'tweak', the device is not particularly expensive, and is well machined, sits unobtrusively, and more or less matches the arm's color. Once installed it does not interfere with cuing.

Historical note: Technics arms from the '80s were more sophisticated than what they now offer. EPA 100/250/500 series arms featured integral counterweight damping (a combination of spring/oil/magnetic resistance--a more sophisticated application of the old Dual wobbly-bobbly counterweights on their 704/721 series record players).

In addition, the 250/500 series offered changeable arm wands allowing users to match cartridge compliance to arm mass. I suppose the tooling for that tech was long gone, and Panasonic didn't want to spend whatever dollars it would take to make it new.

The only downside I heard was that the 100 series used synthetic ruby ball bearings that were fragile and prone to cracking if mishandled.
At the price of these TT's, they could have put in electro-magnetic damping... like the old Sony Biotracers, or the Denon/JVC arms of old, or even the passive magnetic approach used by dynavector....

It doesn't have to be fluid damping... but fluid damping can be done in a sealed mechanism such as Jelco did on their arms too...

lots of alternatives - like I said, damping on these TT's is a missed opportunity.
 

anmpr1

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If a mess is made using a KAB dampner, it's called user error. And the rest of the technical talk is a bit ridiculous IMO. The dampner is not rocket science but it is effective.

The entire device is a bit ridiculous, IMO. But YMMV. Is it effective? Depends upon what you are trying to achieve. And how would you know it is effective? Does anyone anywhere have any support for its 'effectiveness'? I don't think Kevin at KAB has ever offered anything but his statement that it's helpful.

It would be easy enough to do. Measure resonance with and without the device, using a particular cartridge. I've never read that it has been done. Maybe it has. Send us a link.

In any case, it is not a precision device, such what you could dial in, on Sony/JVC/Denon machines using electronic damping. Compared to that, the KAB is a pretty crude kludge.
 

anmpr1

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Why did you buy one and obviously have a little trouble "handling" one?

It's a hobby and I like trying out a lot of different things. And although you are being a bit snarky, I don't mind admitting that cleaning up a bowl of silicone oil is not the quickest and most pleasant thing one might do.

But back to the Technics arm, and the need for possible damping v the KAB. Consider what Panasonic used to offer. EPA-100 used a sealed inside the counterweight system to provide damping behind the pivot. KAB provides an open trough in front of the pivot. EPA 100 offers five set ranges calibrated to different cartridge compliances along with weight of the headshell/cartridge assembly, and instructions/graph on how to calibrate your particular cartridge. KAB provides a one size fits all 'solution', telling you to fill the trough about half way--not too little and not too much, with no way at all to fine tune or adjust the damping effect. So it's not a precision device, which was really all I said.

Of course the Technics 1200 arm is designed to a price point, which the EPA seperate series could ignore. And if you need damping, you have to go with an aftermarket solution. I'm not saying that you won't get a positive benefit from the combination, but it will be rather hit or miss. And the only way to really know would be to measure before and after. You don't even need a 'scope or lab instruments for that. Something like the Shure V-15 test record works. You can measure arm resonance and 'trackability' with and without the device.

Which brings me to another complaint. Damping at the pivot is always going to be less desirable than damping at the cartridge. The Shure brush device was both helpful and clever. I'm sure the Shure patent is long gone; why the other brands don't install something similar is something I'll never understand. Other than they don't want to seem like followers. And the thing about the Shure device is that you can easily defeat it if you don't want to use it. Try that with the KAB.
 
OP
Bob from Florida

Bob from Florida

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I had a Mikro Seiko arm originally on my Merrill Heirloom table that had a damping trough. Tried with and without - first time without after it fell off and dumped the oil. Never could hear anything meaningful without it. One of those "impossible" things to test by ear as no way to instantly change back and forth while listening. Kept trying to use the trough - mainly because of believing the "marketing" claims. Finally changed arms to a Graham Robin - Jelco - arm with greater overall satisfaction.
I will never get another damping trough.
 

anmpr1

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I had a Mikro Seiko arm originally on my Merrill Heirloom table that had a damping trough. Tried with and without - first time without after it fell off and dumped the oil. Never could hear anything meaningful without it. One of those "impossible" things to test by ear as no way to instantly change back and forth while listening. Kept trying to use the trough - mainly because of believing the "marketing" claims. Finally changed arms to a Graham Robin - Jelco - arm with greater overall satisfaction.
I will never get another damping trough.

When I installed the KAB device, I thought I could hear a benefit. But memory is often unreliable, and it's easy to fool oneself. I made the mistake of not doing before and after comparisons with my test records, so I really had no way of knowing for sure whether the thing made an improvement. One thing was certain, after the silicone started to lose viscosity it made things worse.

If I was younger I would do that and post some results with various cartridges--high to low compliance, here on ASR. But that is too much for me now. Kevin from KAB should be the one doing that. Again, maybe he has, but I never saw any results if he did.

FWIW, KAB sells some pretty 'tweaky' mods, along with some that are quite practical. The idea that defeating the strobe light or the addition of a plastic plug to the back of the arm (where the optional arm weight screws in) is going to make a difference in the sound of your deck is too much for me. On the other hand, the addition of 78 rpm (for the older decks) and dust cover hinge add-ons--things like that, can be viewed as adding value.

As far as the new Technics goes, I think it represents good value. I've owned the brand, and still have an SL-1100a and 1200 Mk5. However, at their newer prices, if I was in the market for a DD I'd be looking at the latest Denon, which IMO has nicer aesthetics. The new Denon doesn't have pitch control, but I've never used that feature on my 1200. You have to use it on the 1100 because that machine is not quartz PLL, and it therefore doesn't maintain the kind of speed accuracy you get with the 1200. On the other hand, if one is a serious 78rpm collector, the pitch control could be a benefit, since I've read that some of the old 78s were not all exactly 78 rpm. I would use 78 just to run my Discwasher hand held brush quicker.

As @restorer-john posted, the 'cogging' thing seems to be mostly marketing; that effect was never an audible issue for me with any of my DD. Perhaps if I had their latest and greatest model I could compare and make a better judgement. However it is, I guess that on an intellectual/theoretical level, smoother rotation is 'better'. Sure can't hurt.
 

JP

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Do you expect any real improvement or is this all "marketing"?

I'd lean toward marketing, with the impetus for the change likely due part availability and/or platform consolidation.

The original 1200G(AE) used a dedicated motor drive IC and a uC while the 10R just uses a single uC. Performance-wise, with my best W&F track, both are neck and neck with the SP-10MK3. In their marketing for the 10R they go on about how nice the drive waveforms look, and they do, but the MK3 does dandy with trapezoidal drive. Assuming the GR DNA is similar to the G or R, it's hard to imagine a meaningful improvement.
 

amadeuswus

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Damping at the pivot is always going to be less desirable than damping at the cartridge. The Shure brush device was both helpful and clever. I'm sure the Shure patent is long gone; why the other brands don't install something similar is something I'll never understand. Other than they don't want to seem like followers. And the thing about the Shure device is that you can easily defeat it if you don't want to use it. Try that with the KAB.
The Townshend Rock turntable was another version of defeatable damping at the cartridge end. (A headshell outrigger is lowered into a large trough that swings over the record.) I think the Townshend concept has been discussed here, maybe unfavorably by members with vinyl expertise (just going by memory here). If I recall correctly, my Rock Mk III came with a reprint of an article that had some comparative measurements done with and without the damping.

I never had a real accident with the Townshend trough, but in a worst-case scenario that would be a lot of silicon oil to clean up!
 
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