Technics SL 1210GR2 Turntable

[Bob from Florida]

I'd lean toward marketing, with the impetus for the change likely due part availability and/or platform consolidation.

The original 1200G(AE) used a dedicated motor drive IC and a uC while the 10R just uses a single uC. Performance-wise, with my best W&F track, both are neck and neck with the SP-10MK3. In their marketing for the 10R they go on about how nice the drive waveforms look, and they do, but the MK3 does dandy with trapezoidal drive. Assuming the GR DNA is similar to the G or R, it's hard to imagine a meaningful improvement.

The reason for me to even look at another table is I miss the detachable headshell my Robin arm had. Makes having multiple mounted cartridges a reality. My Satisfy arm on my Performance DC does not have this. Changing to another arm that does could easily be more $ than the entire Technics table - unless one goes with the G model with the magnesium arm. I think the Groovemaster 3 arm will fit my base, but by the time you buy their headshell, you are pushing $3K. At that point maybe the model G starts to be attractive. Plus the benefit of not replacing belts with direct drive.

 

[Bob from Florida]

When I installed the KAB device, I thought I could hear a benefit. But memory is often unreliable, and it's easy to fool oneself. I made the mistake of not doing before and after comparisons with my test records, so I really had no way of knowing for sure whether the thing made an improvement. One thing was certain, after the silicone started to lose viscosity it made things worse.

If I was younger I would do that and post some results with various cartridges--high to low compliance, here on ASR. But that is too much for me now. Kevin from KAB should be the one doing that. Again, maybe he has, but I never saw any results if he did.

FWIW, KAB sells some pretty 'tweaky' mods, along with some that are quite practical. The idea that defeating the strobe light or the addition of a plastic plug to the back of the arm (where the optional arm weight screws in) is going to make a difference in the sound of your deck is too much for me. On the other hand, the addition of 78 rpm (for the older decks) and dust cover hinge add-ons--things like that, can be viewed as adding value.

As far as the new Technics goes, I think it represents good value. I've owned the brand, and still have an SL-1100a and 1200 Mk5. However, at their newer prices, if I was in the market for a DD I'd be looking at the latest Denon, which IMO has nicer aesthetics. The new Denon doesn't have pitch control, but I've never used that feature on my 1200. You have to use it on the 1100 because that machine is not quartz PLL, and it therefore doesn't maintain the kind of speed accuracy you get with the 1200. On the other hand, if one is a serious 78rpm collector, the pitch control could be a benefit, since I've read that some of the old 78s were not all exactly 78 rpm. I would use 78 just to run my Discwasher hand held brush quicker.

As @restorer-john posted, the 'cogging' thing seems to be mostly marketing; that effect was never an audible issue for me with any of my DD. Perhaps if I had their latest and greatest model I could compare and make a better judgement. However it is, I guess that on an intellectual/theoretical level, smoother rotation is 'better'. Sure can't hurt.

The new Denon 3000 looks pretty nice. The VTA lever and magnetic anti-skate are nice touches. Much more attractive than the Technics.

 

[anmpr1]

The reason for me to even look at another table is I miss the detachable headshell my Robin arm had. Makes having multiple mounted cartridges a reality. My Satisfy arm on my Performance DC does not have this. Changing to another arm that does could easily be more $ than the entire Technics table - unless one goes with the G model with the magnesium arm. I think the Groovemaster 3 arm will fit my base, but by the time you buy their headshell, you are pushing $3K. At that point maybe the model G starts to be attractive. Plus the benefit of not replacing belts with direct drive.

@Frank Dernie has relevant posts discussing headshell/arm resonances. I appreciate his insight. But I'm not a purist in that sense. For my part, removable headshells are 'life savers' since I enjoy cartridge swapping, and the convenience of removable headshells overrides any 'sonic' limitations they might effect.

 

[thewas]

The new Denon 3000 looks pretty nice. The VTA lever and magnetic anti-skate are nice touches. Much more attractive than the Technics.

I am afraid though its direct drive could be just another Hanpin who makes world most turntables and especially direct drives, till now I only know Technics making their own DD motor engineering.

 

[anmpr1]

I am afraid though its direct drive could be just another Hanpin who makes world most turntables and especially direct drives, till now I only know Technics making their own DD motor engineering.

Don't worry so much about that. Just depends on the overall QC. Not so much where it's made.

As the guild navigator quipped: "We have just folded space from Ix. Many machines on Ix. New machines. Better than those on Richesse."

 

[thewas]

Don't worry so much about that. Just depends on the overall QC. Not so much where it's made.

As the guild navigator quipped: "We have just folded space from Ix. Many machines on Ix. New machines. Better than those on Richesse."

I don't worry about the location where its made, just wouldn't want to spend so much for a turntable which has the same drive like a million other $500 ones, that's why I would still go for the Technics unless Denon shows its a drive they engineered themselves.

 

[anmpr1]

I don't worry about the location where its made, just wouldn't want to spend so much for a turntable which has the same drive like a million other $500 ones, that's why I would still go for the Technics unless Denon shows its a drive they engineered themselves.

Their Web site doesn't have much to go on. Marketing shtick discusses "Space Vector PMW (whatever that is) motor control that 'greatly reduces harmonics"... Idiotic without knowing details, for sure.

Hope for the best, expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed.

 

[thewas]

Their Web site doesn't have much to go on. Marketing shtick discusses "Space Vector PMW (whatever that is) motor control that 'greatly reduces harmonics"... Idiotic without knowing details, for sure.

Hope for the best, expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed.

Exactly such worries me and give me another reason to go for the GR2 (the main reason though is that it would fit nicely my two good old MK2 classics).

 

[restorer-john]

I am afraid though its direct drive could be just another Hanpin who makes world most turntables and especially direct drives, till now I only know Technics making their own DD motor engineering.

It must have a chunk of scrap metal inside to pad out the weight to 18.5kg.

 

[JP]

It must have a chunk of scrap metal inside to pad out the weight to 18.5kg.

Technics did that with the 10R.

 

[restorer-john]

Technics did that with the 10R.

They've all done it at some stage haven't they? Is the 10R weight for 'feel' or for function?

I've lost count of the number of "high-end" brand remote controls where they screw down/glue a piece of scrap steel to give it more "weight and heft" in the hand. Accuphase did it for years. Cambridge/Sony did it, so the cheap remotes they used seemed more 'luxurious'.

I've seen plenty of 70s and 80s TTs with small-medium chunks of iron, but they were always (IMO) there to balance the loads on all four feet, especially when the lid was up/down to keep the deck level. Or at least that's how it appeared.

 

[dlaloum]

The entire device is a bit ridiculous, IMO. But YMMV. Is it effective? Depends upon what you are trying to achieve. And how would you know it is effective? Does anyone anywhere have any support for its 'effectiveness'? I don't think Kevin at KAB has ever offered anything but his statement that it's helpful.

It would be easy enough to do. Measure resonance with and without the device, using a particular cartridge. I've never read that it has been done. Maybe it has. Send us a link.

In any case, it is not a precision device, such what you could dial in, on Sony/JVC/Denon machines using electronic damping. Compared to that, the KAB is a pretty crude kludge.

It's been done, many times, I did it with my electro-damped JVC... it isn't hard and the impact is very obvious when measured

 

[dlaloum]

They've all done it at some stage haven't they? Is the 10R weight for 'feel' or for function?

I've lost count of the number of "high-end" brand remote controls where they screw down/glue a piece of scrap steel to give it more "weight and heft" in the hand. Accuphase did it for years. Cambridge/Sony did it, so the cheap remotes they used seemed more 'luxurious'.

I've seen plenty of 70s and 80s TTs with small-medium chunks of iron, but they were always (IMO) there to balance the loads on all four feet, especially when the lid was up/down to keep the deck level. Or at least that's how it appeared.

Yes, in anything that involves suspension - adding weight (or removing it) will shift the resonant frequency - so part of the tuning process can involve adding mass - and then there is balancing - a suspended system typically needs to be balanced so it's center of gravity moves in the correct manner (for a TT, straight up and down, without any side oscillation) - and that can involve adding weight.

The other way of adjusting the suspension is to select softer or firmer "springs" - but typically you need to combine both.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I wish Technics would dispense with the DJ table appearance. The Denon looks so much cleaner.

 

[Bob from Florida]

From a practical playback standpoint, what is the actual difference between the MK7, 100C, GR, and G models?

 

[computer-audiophile]

I would use 78 just to run my Discwasher hand held brush quicker.

Good point! I've been doing that all along.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I am afraid though its direct drive could be just another Hanpin who makes world most turntables and especially direct drives, till now I only know Technics making their own DD motor engineering.

Since I don’t know a lot about different direct drive motors, I will ask what is so bad about the Hanpin motors versus the Technics motors? If one looks at the overall package comparison between the Denon 3000NE and the Technics - tonearm, motor drive, and function - which one wins?

 

[computer-audiophile]

Since I don’t know a lot about different direct drive motors, I will ask what is so bad about the Hanpin motors versus the Technics motors? If one looks at the overall package comparison between the Denon 3000NE and the Technics - tonearm, motor drive, and function - which one wins?

The most important technical data I always look for in a turntable is the S/N ratio besides wow & flutter. In my opinion, it should be at least 70 dB. The Denon only just achieves this and is on the level of the better models based on the Hanpin OEM modular system. The Technics has 78 dB.

 

[computer-audiophile]

The Denon motor looks like the old Technics and Hanpin motors. The new Technics motors are different, ironless, which is supposed to reduce cogging. I have one of these new Technics, but I have never noticed cogging on other good DDs of which I had many different models former times.

 

[computer-audiophile]

The Hanpin motor: