focused on purchasing a new turntable... SNR >70db

[Bob from Florida]

Sure, but the fellow I was responding to said something about a "set screw", which an arm lock with a lever ain't.

I should have clarified that - set screw is what most arms use - think Jelco and variants. You are correct regarding "lever lock" is different than a set screw. Functionally the same....

On the threaded VTA adjustor base when you release the lock, the arm does not drop or rise until you turn the base. Very handy if you are inclined to adjust for different record thicknesses or cartridges.

 

[DSJR]

The 1500C went cheap on the tonearm VTA adjustor. It uses the set screw / base drops when you loosen versus the threaded wheel base that raises and lowers when you turn it. You have to go with the 1200/1210 GR or higher to get that feature - IIRC.

Ah, so a nice tight pillar-height fixing, rather than a potentially sloppy threaded wheel arrangement

Different opinions, different vibes of course, but not many owners would intend to swap pickups all the time and once set, it can be left alone (I refuse to entertain those who fine tune VTA with every record played - and yes, I've been there with that one with a demo of a Townshent Rock/Excalibur arm which allowed VTA adjustment while playing - madness lies therein and it's only vinyl when all's said and done, which even the maker of said turntable agreed on

 

[watchnerd]

I should have clarified that - set screw is what most arms use - think Jelco and variants. You are correct regarding "lever lock" is different than a set screw. Functionally the same....

On the threaded VTA adjustor base when you release the lock, the arm does not drop or rise until you turn the base. Very handy if you are inclined to adjust for different record thicknesses or cartridges.

I've lived with both.

Functionally the same, ergonomically not.

My SME M2-9R has a wheel to turn after unlocking and I much prefer it to the 'jiggle the post up and down' method of my Jelco 750.

 

[mhardy6647]

Sure, but the fellow I was responding to said something about a "set screw", which an arm lock with a lever ain't.

True enough. I thought you were taking umbrage at the lack of a threaded adjustment. The lever lock seems fine, until the plastic (if it be plastic) lever becomes brittle and cracks.
Set screws have their foibles, too -- although, in my (clumsy) hands, it's usually dropping nearly microscopic ones onto a less than pristine floor, then going on a treasure hunt!
At any rate, better than no adjustment at all -- although, in my day, we might just shimm the cartridge as needed, VTF (more or less) notwithstanding!

 

[Bob from Florida]

Ah, so a nice tight pillar-height fixing, rather than a potentially sloppy threaded wheel arrangement

Different opinions, different vibes of course, but not many owners would intend to swap pickups all the time and once set, it can be left alone (I refuse to entertain those who fine tune VTA with every record played - and yes, I've been there with that one with a demo of a Townshent Rock/Excalibur arm which allowed VTA adjustment while playing - madness lies therein and it's only vinyl when all's said and done, which even the maker of said turntable agreed on

Depends on how "fine" the threads are. Ideally, an "ACME" squared off thread with natural rigidity and built-in turning resistance. I used to have a Graham Robin Arm - built by Jelco - that has 2 set screws - one with a friction nylon tip to keep it from dropping when you loosen the main set screw. My Clearaudio table has their VTA lifter installed. You push or pull a lever and a viscous coupled gearing raises or lowers the base. Very nice!

 

[Robin L]

Hello… As I'm currently focused on purchasing a new turntable, I’d like to hear your thoughts and recommendations for my next one. My shortlist includes the following models:

1. Technics SL-1500C
2. Magnat MTT 990
3. Pro-Ject The Classic
4. Pro-Ject RPM 5 Carbon
5. Thorens TD 402 DD

I’d prefer the SNR to be over 70 dB, but what is your opinion—would I actually notice a difference between a turntable with 70 dB and one with 80 dB SNR?
If there’s no real difference, then my next consideration is whether to go with direct drive or belt drive. After that, design and practicality matter.
What do you suggest?
You also have the technical measurements in att.


Thank you.

I should note that I don't have a turntable (or LPs) anymore. However, I've had the best luck and most consistent results with Technics direct-drive turntables, some bad luck with belt driven turntables and hardly any luck at all with rim-drive 'tables. The s/n ratio does not count as much as the speed stability and accuracy. The self-noise of vinyl is the usual limit of the noise floor.

 

[JeffS7444]

Besides the lack of index markings, my main objection to the setscrew-type VTA adjustment as used by Linn et al. is that the screw tends to leave scratches on the mating surface.

 

[DSJR]

Are you folks still at the stage of messing around with 'hundreds' of different cartridges and getting anal about the VTA of each?

You do realise you can fine-tune VTA/rake angle of the diamond by 1/10g tracking force either way (the leverage on the cantilever changes slightly) and please don't think these cartridges are made like a precision Swiss mechanical watch, as there's always a little wiggle room in manufacture, at least with the mass produced pickups, although automatic production helps a bit I'm sure.

The 1500C diagrams shown above suggest the pillar-height setting to use for the 2M cartridge supplied (in the UK) and it's even drawn alongside. Set once, along with downforce and bias correction (okay, 'anti-skate' ) and just enjoy some music from the records played, 'cos that's what you bought the thing for, yes?

 

[RoA]

As just mentioned in another thread, got an SL100C. Lovely. Can't see how you can go wrong with the brand.

 

[watchnerd]

Are you folks still at the stage of messing around with 'hundreds' of different cartridges and getting anal about the VTA of each?

You do realise you can fine-tune VTA/rake angle of the diamond by 1/10g tracking force either way (the leverage on the cantilever changes slightly) and please don't think these cartridges are made like a precision Swiss mechanical watch, as there's always a little wiggle room in manufacture, at least with the mass produced pickups, although automatic production helps a bit I'm sure.

The 1500C diagrams shown above suggest the pillar-height setting to use for the 2M cartridge supplied (in the UK) and it's even drawn alongside. Set once, along with downforce and bias correction (okay, 'anti-skate' ) and just enjoy some music from the records played, 'cos that's what you bought the thing for, yes?

Define "anal".

I don't tweak VTA per record.

For my most commonly carts (AT, Nagoka) I don't really bother to change it if swapping carts because they're pretty close to each other in height.

But if I put on something like my fat boy PSU, yeah, I definitely adjust the VTA.....I have to, or the stylus won't clear the record when I use the tonearm lift.

 

[watchnerd]

Besides the lack of index markings, my main objection to the setscrew-type VTA adjustment as used by Linn et al. is that the screw tends to leave scratches on the mating surface.

My old Jelco (which uses a Linn style mounting board) did that. Hated it.

 

[DSJR]

My old Jelco (which uses a Linn style mounting board) did that. Hated it.

Being a Linn dealer from the beginnings in the mid 70s, I remember being told to tighten the Grace 707 pillar-height screws practically as tight as they'd go - the nylon pads on the ends of the screws being crushed to almost non-existence. Also being told to be brutal with cartridge bolts ("How tight to 'do up' an Asak? Take an old one, tighten it until it breaks and that'll tell you how tight to do it up!"). Most of us butchered the then new Ittok arm pillars as we tightened the bolt almost to crush tension ( @Frank Dernie please look away ). It was some years and after a good stiff talking to by a qualified toolmaker, that I realised the designed in 'engineers' clamp didn't need to be that tight, as the bolt simply held the pillar against two longitudinal ridges on the opposite side of the base which held the pillar solid and tight without force, the short end of the Allen key being gently used instead of heavy force on the long end... What set things in stone as regards most Linn dealers was the introduction of the Akito arm, early ones seemingly made of plasticine. Linn had a lot returned early on as the excessive force on the pillar when locking in place, crushed the horizontal bearings, making movement notchy. That taught 'em to overtighten things

 

[watchnerd]

Being a Linn dealer from the beginnings in the mid 70s, I remember being told to tighten the Grace 707 pillar-height screws practically as tight as they'd go - the nylon pads on the ends of the screws being crushed to almost non-existence. Also being told to be brutal with cartridge bolts ("How tight to 'do up' an Asak? Take an old one, tighten it until it breaks and that'll tell you how tight to do it up!"). Most of us butchered the then new Ittok arm pillars as we tightened the bolt almost to crush tension ( @Frank Dernie please look away ). It was some years and after a good stiff talking to by a qualified toolmaker, that I realised the designed in 'engineers' clamp didn't need to be that tight, as the bolt simply held the pillar against two longitudinal ridges on the opposite side of the base which held the pillar solid and tight without force, the short end of the Allen key being gently used instead of heavy force on the long end... What set things in stone as regards most Linn dealers was the introduction of the Akito arm, early ones seemingly made of plasticine. Linn had a lot returned early on as the excessive force on the pillar when locking in place, crushed the horizontal bearings, making movement notchy. That taught 'em to overtighten things

I use a Michell Gyro SE.

The entire TT is a balancing act of nutso tension management.

"Okay, I got it level, but now it bounces more on one spring than another."

"Oh, crap, the SME arm board was milled to counter balance an SME IV or V, not the M2-9R I'm using, so the under carriage weights are off..."

But it looks too damn cool to give up.

 

[JeffS7444]

Being a Linn dealer from the beginnings in the mid 70s, I remember being told to tighten the Grace 707 pillar-height screws practically as tight as they'd go - the nylon pads on the ends of the screws being crushed to almost non-existence. Also being told to be brutal with cartridge bolts ("How tight to 'do up' an Asak? Take an old one, tighten it until it breaks and that'll tell you how tight to do it up!"). Most of us butchered the then new Ittok arm pillars as we tightened the bolt almost to crush tension ( @Frank Dernie please look away ). It was some years and after a good stiff talking to by a qualified toolmaker, that I realised the designed in 'engineers' clamp didn't need to be that tight, as the bolt simply held the pillar against two longitudinal ridges on the opposite side of the base which held the pillar solid and tight without force, the short end of the Allen key being gently used instead of heavy force on the long end... What set things in stone as regards most Linn dealers was the introduction of the Akito arm, early ones seemingly made of plasticine. Linn had a lot returned early on as the excessive force on the pillar when locking in place, crushed the horizontal bearings, making movement notchy. That taught 'em to overtighten things

IIRC, by the time Linn's USA agents (at the time) stopped by our remote outpost, crazy amounts of torque were not part of the program: Not much point in tightening things to the point where parts deform, is there! And thank goodness that by the 1980s, they had discovered the wonders of self-locking suspension hardware. Speaking of which, I wonder to what extent differences between a "perfectly" tuned LP12 suspension versus one which had simply been leveled and had reasonable care taken to minimize binding, could be seen with instruments, much less discerned in ABX comparisons.

 

[JeffS7444]

I use a Michell Gyro SE.

The entire TT is a balancing act of nutso tension management.

"Okay, I got it level, but now it bounces more on one spring than another."

"Oh, crap, the SME arm board was milled to counter balance an SME IV or V, not the M2-9R I'm using, so the under carriage weights are off..."

But it looks too damn cool to give up.

Two words: tungsten putty

 

[Balle Clorin]

But it looks too damn cool to give up

Indeed! bounce has never been an issue here, maybe I an lucky, maybe the SME V, wow is 0.05% peak, same as Technics 1200

 

[DSJR]

IIRC, by the time Linn's USA agents (at the time) stopped by our remote outpost, crazy amounts of torque were not part of the program: Not much point in tightening things to the point where parts deform, is there! And thank goodness that by the 1980s, they had discovered the wonders of self-locking suspension hardware. Speaking of which, I wonder to what extent differences between a "perfectly" tuned LP12 suspension versus one which had simply been leveled and had reasonable care taken to minimize binding, could be seen with instruments, much less discerned in ABX comparisons.

By the mid 90s, the LP12 was 90% sorted, with better plinth construction, the heavier duty Cirkus main bearing/sub-chassis fixing and most samples that came my way simply 'fell together' in a way the 70s and 80s samples rarely did. Some dealers did no tightening at all and fixing nuts underneath could be undone with the fingers on quite a few. Comparing one like this and a properly set-up example was akin to cleaning smear from a window and, after the first year and a check for general tightness, they tended to settle down from then on. The locking nuts may have been good on the springs/ride height adjustment, but could be an effin' nightmare to wind all the way on the long-bolts.

The thing was, in 1987 or so, I heard how 'bad' an LP12/Ittok/Troika sounded, comparing with a master tape of said album track (Tinseltown In The Rain [and 'Regret'] by The Blue Nile) using the 12" 45rpm single cut as well as the LP - master was the 12" half inch 30IPS tape as played on an ATR 102 - no noise reduction necessary. This experience nearly put me off vinyl for life, but a couple of years later, I heard a Notts Analogue deck costing around half the price and with Rega RB300 arm and AT-F5 cartridge, it sang out in a very realistic master-like manner and helped to put me in a better vibe regarding the vinyl format. A few years after that, the LP12 had detailed tweaks underneath and the sonics improved hugely, this before the current range of sub-chassis' and yet more internal plinth tweaks. The thing looks the same from the top, but it's a bit different inside now - and so it bloody should be, the price they ask for it these days...

P.S. I did a general check-up on a Gyro/SME V a few years back. I always found the sound of the Gyro a bit 'swimmy' but this one was superb (Lyra Delos cartridge) and the suspension, after much fuss by the original builder, was piston-like for the last few mm of bounce. This aspect can be very difficult to achieve and in my experience and subjective appraisal, is what helped the solid clean sound this deck offered. The Lyra helped too I think. I cringed at the final SME V retail price before it was withdrawn as a separate entity, but in 1985 or so, it was £1250 and over double the price of the Linn Ittok arm, which was from memory, between £500 and £600 I think.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Everything from Linn has been overpriced always. I good sample work well but at a very high cost.

 

[Balle Clorin]

I always found the sound of the Gyro a bit 'swimmy' but this one was superb (Lyra Delos cartridge) and the suspension, after much fuss by the original builder, was piston-like for the last few mm of bounce.

it only took me 15 months to get it right after I screwed it up after an oil chance,, now it has been perfect for 3 years.

 

[JeffS7444]

By the mid 90s, the LP12 was 90% sorted, with better plinth construction, the heavier duty Cirkus main bearing/sub-chassis fixing and most samples that came my way simply 'fell together' in a way the 70s and 80s samples rarely did. Some dealers did no tightening at all and fixing nuts underneath could be undone with the fingers on quite a few. Comparing one like this and a properly set-up example was akin to cleaning smear from a window and, after the first year and a check for general tightness, they tended to settle down from then on. The locking nuts may have been good on the springs/ride height adjustment, but could be an effin' nightmare to wind all the way on the long-bolts.

The thing was, in 1987 or so, I heard how 'bad' an LP12/Ittok/Troika sounded, comparing with a master tape of said album track (Tinseltown In The Rain [and 'Regret'] by The Blue Nile) using the 12" 45rpm single cut as well as the LP - master was the 12" half inch 30IPS tape as played on an ATR 102 - no noise reduction necessary. This experience nearly put me off vinyl for life, but a couple of years later, I heard a Notts Analogue deck costing around half the price and with Rega RB300 arm and AT-F5 cartridge, it sang out in a very realistic master-like manner and helped to put me in a better vibe regarding the vinyl format. A few years after that, the LP12 had detailed tweaks underneath and the sonics improved hugely, this before the current range of sub-chassis' and yet more internal plinth tweaks. The thing looks the same from the top, but it's a bit different inside now - and so it bloody should be, the price they ask for it these days...

P.S. I did a general check-up on a Gyro/SME V a few years back. I always found the sound of the Gyro a bit 'swimmy' but this one was superb (Lyra Delos cartridge) and the suspension, after much fuss by the original builder, was piston-like for the last few mm of bounce. This aspect can be very difficult to achieve and in my experience and subjective appraisal, is what helped the solid clean sound this deck offered. The Lyra helped too I think. I cringed at the final SME V retail price before it was withdrawn as a separate entity, but in 1985 or so, it was £1250 and over double the price of the Linn Ittok arm, which was from memory, between £500 and £600 I think.

LP12/Valhalla/Ittok is as far as I ever went. IIRC, Cirkus was a pricey update, and Lingo, emphatically so. I got to thinking that it might actually be more economical to buy a new Sondek than to make major updates to one's existing unit.

Now that I have access to basic test instruments, I'd think it would be very easy to gauge the effectiveness of a sprung design by seeing how well it prevents infrasonic energy from being picked up by the stylus. (But should I care anymore, given how well Waxwing's Derumble feature works?). But one thing's for sure: I've got zero desire to go back to the days of tuning a turntable by ear versus instruments!