focused on purchasing a new turntable... SNR >70db

[watchnerd]

DD is much easier to maintain, you need to do ... nothing
i have a 1982 Technics working flawlessly at perfect pitch and since 2 years a brand new mk7.

Tinkering with turntables is a special need, and i respect that and your decision but, surely you also understand it's not the common case ... and for 99% people wanting to get the best bang for the buck with analog ... i woudn't recommend a Michell against Technics.

My opinion is only to clear that (a general rule for a general case), obviously not to discuss what you want / like (personal preferences aren't debatable).

Yes.

Most people probably shouldn’t own vintage classic cars, either.

 

[mike70]

Yes.

Most people probably shouldn’t own vintage classic cars, either.

absolutely ... life's short, we have the right to get our "irrational" goals (measured only by ROI). In other way, we can be a IA, not a human bean

Getting into vinyl is something like that, you can use streaming with all the music in the world with "perfect reproduction" ... but the listening experience (human emotion / experience) with the black plastic is unique ... and not perfect, just like real life ... real music (i always remember the horrendous feedback moment in "No Woman No Cry" ).

 

[Balle Clorin]

I don't think any realistic Michell owners argue that it gives better value for money or technical performance than a GR2.

That's not why I own mine.

I like it because it's a cool piece of engineering, visually interesting, easy to change arms, easy to add a 2nd arm, super easy to maintain or fix, and fun to tinker with.

Exactly! If I only had my DD what should I do ? Play music ? What is the fun in that..

 

[Robin L]

Exactly! If I only had my DD what should I do ? Play music ? What is the fun in that..

Seriously---you might as well stream or use CDs.

 

[watchnerd]

Seriously---you might as well stream or use CDs.

I mean I already have a higher fidelity and more technically accurate analog medium, anyway, in the form of reel to reel.

When I really want to hear max performance analog, I fire up the Studer A807.

 

[Nick_Sukhov]

to hear max performance analog, I fire up the Studer A807

Sony APR-5000 https://www.patreon.com/posts/magiia-124492650

 

[mhardy6647]

Sony APR-5000 https://www.patreon.com/posts/magiia-124492650

Yes. A superb deck.
One of my hifi buddies in Massachusetts has one (as well as a few other, quite redoubtable decks). I heard an early generation safety backup of Rubber Soul played on it last year (my first encounter with one of these decks). The reproduction quality was revelatory.

 

[Smislov]

Thank you all for the advice! My turntable is coming!
I'm expecting to receive a white Technics SL-1500C during this period. I have one last question
How is the built-in preamp on the Technics? I currently use a Thorens MM 002. If you think the preamp in the Technics is OK, I might remove my external preamp, оr maybe I should consider the Fosi Audio Box X5 Phono Preamp? Thanks for the recommendations and suggestions...

P.S. It seems the Thorens MM 002, with its higher capacitance (150–300pF), is more suitable for the Ortofon Red cartridge... whereas the Fosi might be a better match for the cartridge I'm considering in the future — the low-capacitance (100–150pF) Audio-Technica VM95ML.

 

[Smislov]

once more, thanks

 

[jives11]

I wouldn't disagree with anything particularly on here, and were my vintage Thorens to die , I'd almost certainly look at a replacement in the Technics range.

I think above a certain level of measured turntable performance , other factors become dominant, the main two being tracking with a pivoted arm on a medium that was cut tangentially, and variations in LP centering . I've not tried a tangential arm, but have found with pivoted arms that cartridges vary in their ability to avoid IGD, and thinner cantilevered and finer cut styli seem to resolve this problem. I've used Shure SuperTrack and AT ML both to good effect.

So my main issue now, is audible wow, not from the turntable but from records pressed slightly off-centre. I listen to a lot of classical piano music, and it is very audible if the record is off centre , confirmed by a side to side oscillation of the arm with each revolution. The strangest thing, and perhaps people more familiar with record pressing can comment, is that I often experience records where only one side is off centre, which seems illogical, but I have heard it explained regarding the cooling time allowed for the vinyl. It's not a new problem, I have records from the 60's and 70's that exhibit this, but I fear it's a QA issue, and modern pressing plants are less fussy. Most people fret over vertical warps, but less so about horizontal ones, which for me are the greater problem.

So as others have commented, measured turntable performance is very important, but above a certain point, other factors have a greater effect when used with records you are likely to find "in the wild"

 

[Balle Clorin]

The problem is that there are many mediocre and even really poor turntables out there if you start measuring wow and flutter, isolation and vibrations and rumble, and tonearm function.EDIT: On speed variation about 10% of the TT I have tested are as good an ordinary TT from the late 70s early 80s… sad but true.
I have tested and measured about 40 turntables from 200usd to 200 000 USD.
And there are very poor correlation between performance and price. Boutique High End Belt drives are a total hit and miss when it comes to speed quality , so be aware. Combine that with heavy arms and some ultra expensive MC and you have resonances below 5Hz triggered by any record and poor reproduction with lots of intermodulation going on.. on top of wow.

So it is very hard to know if you are getting what you want. In fact you will never get what you expect, only what you INSPECT/measure,

The only thing an ordinary buyer can check themselves easy is the speed quality- center your phone properly! Try different positioning, and remember suspended tables are sensitive to position . + listen. To check other things test record and recordings are necessary. HifiNews offer some TT measurements, they can be useful for comparisons

 

[Bland_username42069]

Thank you all for the advice! My turntable is coming!
I'm expecting to receive a white Technics SL-1500C during this period. I have one last question
How is the built-in preamp on the Technics? I currently use a Thorens MM 002. If you think the preamp in the Technics is OK, I might remove my external preamp, оr maybe I should consider the Fosi Audio Box X5 Phono Preamp? Thanks for the recommendations and suggestions...

P.S. It seems the Thorens MM 002, with its higher capacitance (150–300pF), is more suitable for the Ortofon Red cartridge... whereas the Fosi might be a better match for the cartridge I'm considering in the future — the low-capacitance (100–150pF) Audio-Technica VM95ML.

I don’t think it’s been measured but a lot of people seem to rate it highly.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Ortofon MM does not like as high capacitance as Ortofon state. 150pF in the RIAA - 125 for the cable is already quite high, and 300pF in RIAA(=425 total) is far too high for any cartridge made today, but most Ortofon MM are more linear than AT, , AT peak at 10-15kHz , Ortlofon above 16-20kHz. see the measurment library here

 

[DSJR]

once more, thanks

It does look good in white, doesn't it? My local record shop (yes indeed!) has one, with Marantz amp and LS50s set high up... The arm in the flesh looks low set, so it's not a clunky thing at all. I can't comment on the built-in phono stage, but it can't be too bad surely, especially as the 2M series aren't as low output (for an MM) as say, a typical AT model?

 

[Smislov]

Ortofon MM does not like as high capacitance as Ortofon state. 150pF in the RIAA - 125 for the cable is already quite high, and 300pF in RIAA(=425 total) is far too high for any cartridge made today, but most Ortofon MM are more linear than AT, , AT peak at 10-15kHz , Ortlofon above 16-20kHz. see the measurment library here

I think the price/performance ratio is better with the AT-VM95ML compared to the Ortofon 2M Blue.
What’s your opinion, especially considering that the capacitance of the VM95ML is 100–150 pF?

 

[J.M. Noble]

The only thing an ordinary buyer can check themselves easy is the speed quality- center your phone properly!

I tried all the phone apps and found them to be unreliable when used with my iPhone. A test record and frequency counter (which can also be an app) work much better, as do stroboscopic methods.

 

[J.M. Noble]

Thank you all for the advice! My turntable is coming!
I'm expecting to receive a white Technics SL-1500C during this period. I have one last question
How is the built-in preamp on the Technics? I currently use a Thorens MM 002. If you think the preamp in the Technics is OK, I might remove my external preamp, оr maybe I should consider the Fosi Audio Box X5 Phono Preamp? Thanks for the recommendations and suggestions...

P.S. It seems the Thorens MM 002, with its higher capacitance (150–300pF), is more suitable for the Ortofon Red cartridge... whereas the Fosi might be a better match for the cartridge I'm considering in the future — the low-capacitance (100–150pF) Audio-Technica VM95ML.

The preamp in my SL-1500C is fine. The stock Ortofon 2M Red is so-so at best. Use it for a while to get a baseline, then upgrade the stylus to the 2M Blue.

I have 2M Blues on both my SL-1500C and vintage SL-1600. I'm sure it gets better than this, but I don't even care at this point because it sounds so good.

 

[Palmer]

It does look good in white, doesn't it? My local record shop (yes indeed!) has one, with Marantz amp and LS50s set high up... The arm in the flesh looks low set, so it's not a clunky thing at all. I can't comment on the built-in phono stage, but it can't be too bad surely, especially as the 2M series aren't as low output (for an MM) as say, a typical AT model?

It not only does look very good in white, I think it is a very good deal at the price right now - recommended it to a customer, despite having 4 different TT's in stock that I could have sold to him instead. Making the customer happy is the goal, methinks...

 

[DSJR]

I think the price/performance ratio is better with the AT-VM95ML compared to the Ortofon 2M Blue.
What’s your opinion, especially considering that the capacitance of the VM95ML is 100–150 pF?

If an SL1500C, I'd use the Red stylus for risky old records, skip the rather too tetchy Blue and get a Bronze stylus for best ones. I use an OM30 Super and love it but the 2M bronze seems to have just a little extra 'bite' for want of a better word, which many records seem to like (Bronze stylus now available in OM/Concorde clothes and as part of a rejuvenated 'Concorde' range ). Just my take on it of course. The 2M Red in the 1500C sounds fine however, but no idea if our record shop uses the built-in phono stage or the one in the Marantz 7000N? integrated amp.

As I said before, the 95ML is a bit of a bargain, but its roots are very humble indeed, the basic body internals going back to the conical AT93/Linn Basik. Didn't stop Linn tarting said body up into the K9 and K18 back in the day, but the VM540 if still available and the now great-priced VMx740 (same stylus) are so cheap in real terms, I'd look there for an AT model

 

[Nick_Sukhov]

AT peak at 10-15kHz , Ortlofon above 16-20kHz

when using low input capacitance 25pF not 150pF with 150k not 47k input resistor, all MM carts are much better, see attached file