step response is a important part to show speed of speaker that is good enough for ITD. See measures

[ctrl]

I find only a explanation how to interpret the step response in german from a audio magazine in their lexikon.

Already in the last thread you were recommended to read some standard literature. Especially "Lautsprecher-Messtechnik" by J. D'Appolito or the English original "Testing Loudspeakers". There the interrelations of impulse response and step response, impulse response and FR/Phase response are described.


The statements on the website are partially incorrect or misleadingly formulated:

Breakouts downwards (below the zero line) indicate phase errors.

Even an ideal full-range loudspeaker (with realistic low and high end) must fall below the zero line, since the mean value of the sound pressure must always be zero in a step response curve.

The use of a crossover for example in a 2-way speaker causes further "peaks".

then it is also worse that the Kali have much below the zereo line and so worse phase. The JBL is much better . that the first peak from the JBL is
much higher as the second peak from the woofer/mid show that the JBL have much high boost.

Is it possible that your measurements do not use a gate again? (please read in REW how to do this, after all these months this should be possible)

The step response shows among other things the excess phase ("time delay") caused by the crossover (allpass) filter - which causes the time staggered peaks.
Just because the step response is below the zero line does not mean that the phase shift (calling it a phase error is somewhat misleading, since it is a direct result of the filter function) is particularly "bad" as a result - i.e. the "time delay" is particularly high.

Here is the step response of a second order filter, which causes only a small "time delay" (better said group delay). First positive peak is the tweeter, the negative peak is the woofer.

So, no the phase is not particularly "bad" in this example because the step response is below the zero line. The opposite is the case, because the phase shift around the crossover frequency is only 180°.


Here is an example of a 2-way loudspeaker, once with almost perfect LR4@1000Hz crossover frequency and a second one with poor phase alignment around the crossover frequency.

So the "worst phase" has the loudspeaker with the smallest "peak" below the zero line.

 

[bennybbbx]

One last attempt: imagine two parallel train tracks, each with a train on it. Both trains drive exactly 50km/h. Is it possible that one of the trains arrives 0.0001ms before the other? The answer is of course yes, as the arrival solely depends on when each train has started to move. Whether one train could go 100km/h and the other 250km/h is irrelevant to the question.

Please do yourself a favor and get one of the books above. Let's talk again when you're done reading.

you forget in this example that 1 train need drive forward then backward then forward then backward then forward. the other train can move straigt. do you think when a train can drive 50 kmh in 1 hour this train can stay at same position as the train that move straight ?

maybe should look on hydraulik examples. in the other step response thread i have post this. a slow system do phase shifts delay when switch between forward and backward. also i train need more time. so it can not stay in phase with the other train. sure on speakers the delay is not cumulate, because speakers do not continue move a many km way. the need only move 2 mm forward 2 mm backward. and when they are late they stay of course in this range and you notice not as when the train reach the 50 km distances much later

or the slow train do not drive to end position and move back earlier. this happen on slow speaker too

 

[markus]

And around and around we go

Didn't expect my example to be that much of an intellectual challenge.

Please do yourself a favor and get one of the books above. Let's talk again when you're done reading.

 

[KSTR]

The jbl have a 6 db crossover stand in specs

That's just the electrical part. The acoustic order of the total system is clearly 4th. Part of this is the driver's natural responses and another part is that the tweeter is in front of the woofer, causing the woofer being additionally late in time.

 

[KSTR]

And around and around we go

Time to take a break from this thread, definitely ;-)

 

[bennybbbx]

View attachment 171102 View attachment 171103
So the "worst phase" has the loudspeaker with the smallest "peak" below the zero line.

then you confirm what in the Audio Lexicon stand. the left diagram have worst phase correct ?. BTW: the JBL or the Kali with EQ get the small peak much more below the zero line. the phase is shift with the EQ. so i think it is right. step response show also if phase is good.

 

[bennybbbx]

That's just the electrical part. The acoustic order of the total system is clearly 4th. Part of this is the driver's natural responses and another part is that the tweeter is in front of the woofer, causing the woofer being additionally late in time.

ok, then can see on phase result that there is a faster speaker usefull in the JBL too. but we get not for every speaker phase results and the passive speakers that are measure have much smaller phase diffrences. Wy this ?. the reason wy active speakers have often worse phase i hope is not because speaker developers think that studio monitors buyer often hear loud music and have hear damage, so they need no good fast speakers in mid.

 

[markus]

Time to take a break from this thread, definitely ;-)

I'm starting to think we're talking to an AI training for the next big disinformation campaign

 

[ctrl]

then you confirm what in the Audio Lexicon stand. the left diagram have worst phase correct ?

LMAO!
Now I know that you are fooling us all the time. Please stop trolling or I will have to report you.

 

[markus]

Already in the last thread you were recommended to read some standard literature. Especially "Lautsprecher-Messtechnik" by J. D'Appolito

Oh you already did? That would have been my next tip for bennybbbx

 

[bennybbbx]

LMAO!
Now I know that you are fooling us all the time. Please stop trolling or I will have to report you.

then you want say what in the audio lexicon of this magazine stand is wrong and the examples they show ?
in their examples they show that the left side of the step response when this go large below zero this is not good phase. and in the quote i do from your post is the left picture that go on left side down zero. so i thought you want conform this

read about this post with the hydraulic on page 9 and see the diagram

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...oes-it-really-matter.1999/page-21#post-875241 With high frequency, output pressure
lags input command. Output pressure
does not rise fully

and because left and right speaker play diffrent frequency or distance between peeks, the lag of the peaks are more diffrent on slow speakers less or more depend on frequency they need play. and for ITD is 10 µsec phase diffrence between left and right hearable.

EDIT: or just calculate the input to output lag in microseconds of a speaker that reach 5 khz -3 db at a frequency of 1.2 khz and 700 hz. the input to output lag of the speaker need be less 10 µsec for ITD

 

[bennybbbx]

maybe this is important to understand what i mean. When in the phase response diffrence is show of 30 deg at 500 hz and 1000 hz then input to output delay is not same. see the calc

1/500 = 2000 µsec period time
1/1000 = 1000 µsec

for the 500 hz is the calc. 2000/360 = 1 deg = 5.55 µsec
for the 1000 hz is the calc 1000/360 = 1 deg = 2.7 µsec

for the 1000 hz deg to µsec is 2.7*30 = 81 µsec
for the 500 hz deg to µsec is 5.55 * 30 = 166.5 µsec

so the diffrence in input to output Lag (if a speaker or speaker + filter is same) between 500 hz and 1000 hz is 85.5 µsec but the deg is the same

so if a mid speaker have 30 degree diffrence it is worse for correct ITD because both speakers need play diffrent frequency.

 

[markus]

OK, I'll bite...

Consider just a single speaker. How exactly does a "slow" speaker create an interaural time difference (=ITD) that is any different from a "fast" speaker IF the location of each speaker is the same?

 

[bennybbbx]

Consider just a single speaker. How exactly does a "slow" speaker create an interaural time difference (=ITD) that is any different from a "fast" speaker IF the location of each speaker is the same?

have you not look at the hydraulic example ?. the slow speaker need more time than a fast speaker to reach a position. so a fast speaker can reach higher frequencies too. but always at any frequency every speaker have a delay to reach a peak. a faster speaker less, a slower speaker more.
the speed a speaker reach a level depend on the phaase delay of speaker and the LP crossover filter. the problem for ITD is that the delay between left and right speaker should less as 10 µsec because some people can hear diffrence.
sure you are right the best is to show frequency response without filter when want see the speaker speed. but this can not test without open the speaker and remove the crossover filter.

you should remember that both speaker play diffrent signals in left and right channel. or do you not aggree that on a stereo system left and right speaker always play diffrent wavelength and frequency ?. see here the wave overlay of right and left channel https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...or-itd-see-measures.28585/page-5#post-1002508

the distance of wavelength in µsec depend on the peak and valleys.

 

[Andreas007]

A tedious thread about an interesting topic.
Don't feed the troll.

 

[markus]

have you not look at the hydraulic example ?. the slow speaker need more time than a fast speaker to reach a position. so a fast speaker can reach higher frequencies too. but always at any frequency every speaker have a delay to reach a peak. a faster speaker less, a slower speaker more.
the speed a speaker reach a level depend on the phaase delay of speaker and the LP crossover filter. the problem for ITD is that the delay between left and right speaker should less as 10 µsec because some people can hear diffrence.
sure you are right the best is to show frequency response without filter when want see the speaker speed. but this can not test without open the speaker and remove the crossover filter.

you should remember that both speaker play diffrent signals in left and right channel. or do you not aggree that on a stereo system left and right speaker always play diffrent wavelength and frequency ?. see here the wave overlay of right and left channel https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...or-itd-see-measures.28585/page-5#post-1002508

the distance of wavelength in µsec depend on the peak and valleys.

That doesn't answer the question I've raised the slightest

I'll repeat: Consider just a single speaker. How exactly does a "slow" speaker create an interaural time difference (=ITD) that is any different from a "fast" speaker IF the location of each speaker is the same?

 

[NTK]

the problem for ITD is that the delay between left and right speaker should less as 10 µsec because some people can hear diffrence.

Have you calculated how far sound travels in 10 µs? If I move my head more than that, what happens?

 

[bennybbbx]

View attachment 171102 View attachment 171103
So the "worst phase" has the loudspeaker with the smallest "peak" below the zero line.

then you mean what in the audio lexikon stand is wrong ?. you do bring theoretical things. maybe you can post example things of real speakers ?. A 8 inch 2 way speaker that you think have good stereo width for example. theory is only the beginning and make it more easy to practice. the end result and most important is to practice.

i do not gate. because room influence is not so much. at 1.2 ms rooom reflections come. thats good enough for measure step response.

but with the phase and windowed i see what can explain that JBL sound so much better. Because in the criticial mid range for ITD the phase of
JBL is much more near 0 as from Kali. kali have 231
deg at 850 hz JBL 104 BT -39. i can measure the JBL more near and then i get later room reflections. or use the 1.5 cm measure.

but phase response is here not post for active speakers so i did not see how phase of JBL or Kali look on better measure

 

[bennybbbx]

That doesn't answer the question I've raised the slightest

I'll repeat: Consider just a single speaker. How exactly does a "slow" speaker create an interaural time difference (=ITD) that is any different from a "fast" speaker IF the location of each speaker is the same?

your question make no sense. with a single speaker there does not happen any ITD from the music signals. ITD is only from the position of the loudspeaker hear whre he play sound and from the reverb of the room in this the loudspeaker play. then it doesnt matter if speaker is slow or not because the signal come only from one speaker and not 2 speaker.

maybe this is whats not clear. the ITD is inside the signals that are produce from the stereo speakers. you can delay a 500 hz tone around 40 microseconds of left speaker and it is hear from the right side a little. level is exact same

I have my JBLL very near, so there is very low room interactions. when i mix concert reverb in my music, i hear this big room because my speaker produce this ITD room information in low frequency. and not my room

 

[bennybbbx]

Have you calculated how far sound travels in 10 µs? If I move my head more than that, what happens?

here is a diagram which delay cause which angle https://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio-webdav/handbook/Binaural_Hearing.html .of course position detection do not work during you rotate your head. when you head is in a position you can hear the signal that it is not exact in front and come from side. see this post that contain hearing test https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...for-itd-see-measures.28585/page-2#post-998388