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step response is a important part to show speed of speaker that is good enough for ITD. See measures

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bennybbbx

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How wide is a mono signal source on stereo speakers? And how wide should it be? And how change the 'spead' ohttps://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio-webdav/handbook/Binaural_Hearing.html

read also above post about records and stereo reverb that every good stereo song have.
and herar this test wav files

with the 44.1 khz and the testsound upto 1.5 khz can you hear how the reverb spread from the mid wider to left and right after a base drum or snare Hit ??.

now hear the record with the 11 khz sample rate. 11 khz use less samples and is less precise. because a sample rate of 11 khz is more as enough to record the testsounds that go not more as 1.5 khz should have same quality. but it sound strange in 11 khz sample rate. this show the phase information for ITD is lost and can not store in 11 khz sample rate. 11 khz is ~ 5 khz possible bandwidth. simular to a bass mid woofer range
Or did you hear in the 11 khz test that the reverb spread from the mid to left and right too ?. that happen also on real rooms that reverb spread from the sound source.
 

tomtoo

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I asked easy question. How wide? Cant you answer this?
How wide is it, before we go into more compexity?
 
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bennybbbx

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I asked easy question. How wide? Cant you answer this?

please hear the test. and to your question

A mono signal sound small. but every producer add a reverb to the mono signal when he do a stereo mix. so it sound as piano in a room for example. which sound you like more. sound of Piano in a 10 qm room or in a larger concert hall
 

tomtoo

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please hear the test. and to your question

A mono signal sound small. but every producer add a reverb to the mono signal when he do a stereo mix. so it sound as piano in a room for example. which sound you like more. sound of Piano in a 10 qm room or in a larger concert hall

I asked a very easy question. And this was a not so very good answer.
So lets imagine the same mono signal with reverb added. How wide is it now?
 
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bennybbbx

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I asked a very easy question. And this was a not so very good answer.
So lets imagine the same mono signal with reverb added. How wide is it now?

the answer is good because in every stereo record there is a room add. in early days they use hall plates. it create a width of the reverb.now can use digital reverb and choose width, depth and height of the reverb. see screenshot. this is presonus studio one and there is a small free version. it contain this reverb too. so you can add a mono sound and add the reverb and choose the width. then on speaker can hear it is smaller or larger.
.
reverb setting.jpg


size is in meter and the width and height knobs are factors. in this screenshot is should sound as 4.66 meter width 3.6 meter long and 1.44 :D meter height.
 

tomtoo

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the answer is good because in every stereo record there is a room add. in early days they use hall plates. it create a width of the reverb.now can use digital reverb and choose width, depth and height of the reverb. see screenshot. this is presonus studio one and there is a small free version. it contain this reverb too. so you can add a mono sound and add the reverb and choose the width. then on speaker can hear it is smaller or larger.
.View attachment 170675

size is in meter and the width and height knobs are factors. in this screenshot is should sound as 4.66 meter width 3.6 meter long and 1.44 :D meter height.

A mono signal?
So hear your mono signal?
 
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bennybbbx

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It is obvious from these two statements that you "don't know this" and you don't know what is happening in the underlying signal, that you assume had ITD information but more often than not does not in recorded music.

here is very detailed that ITD is a important piece of hearing.

do you really believe a 5 khz -3 db bass/mid woofer can produce for 10 µsec precision the peaks and a LP filter with much db /per octave when both speakers play diffrent frequency and level as it happen on stereo speakers. but the solution is simple and we need no step response when every speaker developer know this and the bass/mind in 2 way systems can reach at least 15 khz. but when not know how fast the bass/mid woofer is and the LP crossover the step response help or tell another measure that show this that can do with the klippel

Most sensitive listeners​

Listeners were not all equally sensitive to changes in ITD. Listeners L1 and L2 were the most sensitive. They had thresholds with a well-defined minimum as a function of frequency, not much larger than 10 μs, and measurable thresholds at 1400 Hz. Their results are shown in Figs. Figs.1a,1a, ,1b,1b, and thresholds from previous experiments using filled symbols for comparison are also shown.
 

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here is very detailed that ITD is a important piece of hearing.

do you really believe a 5 khz -3 db bass/mid woofer can produce for 10 µsec precision the peaks and a LP filter with much db /per octave when both speakers play diffrent frequency and level as it happen on stereo speakers. but the solution is simple and we need no step response when every speaker developer know this and the bass/mind in 2 way systems can reach at least 15 khz. but when not know how fast the bass/mid woofer is and the LP crossover the step response help or tell another measure that show this that can do with the klippel
Let's have a little thought experiment. Say you are recording an instrument with a pair of stereo mics, and play back the recording with a pair of speakers, left speaker playing the left mic signal, and right playing right. If the frequencies of the signal in the left speaker are different from the right, your play back system would be an extremely strange (and messed up) one. The "speed" of the speaker will not be on the list of my first 20 suspects as the root cause.
 
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bennybbbx

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Let's have a little thought experiment. Say you are recording an instrument with a pair of stereo mics, and play back the recording with a pair of speakers, left speaker playing the left mic signal, and right playing right.

look at this post https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...or-itd-see-measures.28585/page-4#post-1002083 there is wave view show for overlay left and right channel. the frequency come thru the distance of the peak. look on the wave display the distance of the peak change and is always diffrent between left and right channel so this is a change of frequency or better wave length.. should notice on a music there are never play continues frequencies. its a frequency mix. for ITD able speakers i hear much db per octave sound bad because the phase shift is so large.

if you not believe, think about what happen when on the right channel is the highhat stronger as on the left channel. or there are 2 guitarist that play guitar 1. on full left channel 1 on full right channel . thats called double tracking or wall of sound.

or look on this marked place. 1 channel need play 2 peeks the other only 1. thats double wavelength and half freq
peaks.jpg


this is from real music and no theoretical
 
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audio2design

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@bennybbbx , please do not quote reply me after this, I will just mute.

Many have tried to explain the fundamental error in your thought process. You are too busy trying to show what you know, that you don't seem to understand what you do not know. It has been explained to you, multiple times, but I expect there may be too many holes in your fundamental knowledge to patch with a few posts.

You appear to have no ability to relate ITD, to the differential in timing between 2 ears and why the response of 1 speaker is meaningless, and why rise time is meaningless. I am going to make one last try to trigger a different line of thinking for you :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_detector
 
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bennybbbx

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You appear to have no ability to relate ITD, to the differential in timing between 2 ears and why the response of 1 speaker is meaningless, and why rise time is meaningless. I am going to make one last try to trigger a different line of thinking for you :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_detector

A phase detector work only when have continues cyclic frequency. In music there are many frequency overlayed. So the result is see in my previous screenshot that peak and valleys of the signal are much diffrent and not cyclic( i mean that in music signals the peak and values are not over longer time at same distance) in left and right. The phase shift of the LP flter and speakerspeed do shift the phase depend on distance of wave cycles in not continues frequency. This seem the reason wy steep filters sound not good when can hear ITD. and this is show in step response how fast filters are and how fast speaker is.

the phase response of the Kali look better. the JBL phase response look strange in aorund 450 hz. i dont know wy. crossover is at 1.3 khz . so phase does not explain wy the LBL 104 can produce reverb much more realistic
phase.jpg
 
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bennybbbx

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I find only a explanation how to interpret the step response in german from a audio magazine in their lexikon. I translate important things with google translate. they bring another argument wy step response is more usefull as impulse response.and they write same i write. it is more easy readable as the impulse response

https://www.fairaudio.de/lexikon/sprungantwort/ From a mathematical point of view, the integral of the impulse response over time is nothing other than the step response. In other words, it provides the same information, only in a different form - and for some purposes more descriptive. The next graphic shows a very good, fast response from the loudspeaker, followed by an even drop: ------ The step response shows the decay behavior of the loudspeaker over the entire frequency spectrum. Breakouts downwards (below the zero line) indicate phase errors. If the measurement record shows clearly identifiable individual mountains or peaks in the course, it can be assumed that the response of the individual chassis is delayed and therefore not optimal. You can literally see the staggered reactions of the individual loudspeaker chassis. The following graphics clearly show how the individual chassis start with a time delay (the "spikes" in the rise). In the case of the first display, a phase error is also to be assumed. The second picture suggests a three-way system - the ascent is divided into three parts:

then it is also worse that the Kali have much below the zereo line and so worse phase. The JBL is much better . that the first peak from the JBL is
much higher as the second peak from the woofer/mid show that the JBL have much high boost. when correct the JBL with EQ peak of bass/woofer is simular to tweeter peak.
jbl 104 no eq step response.jpg
kali lp 6 no eq step response.jpg
 

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Please, please, pretty please, read...
"Acoustics and Psychoacoustics" by David Howard and James Angus

...or if English is too much of a hurdle then read...
"Räumliches Hören" by Jens Blauert

I'm hereby asking the mods to close this thread for your own good. Hope this doesn't need any further clarification.
 
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bennybbbx

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Please, please, pretty please, read...
"Acoustics and Psychoacoustics" by David Howard and James Angus

...or if English is too much of a hurdle then read...
"Räumliches Hören" by Jens Blauert

I'm hereby asking the mods to close this thread for your own good. Hope this doesn't need any further clarification.

does in this book stand anything about ITD hearing of people ?. If there stand nothing in this book then it is not usefull and miss many things and seem the author did not know about ITD. because ITD hearing is a important part to hear the room. see my post what happen when range below 460 hz make mono with the test video


and here can read more about ITD and there are many hearing examples for ITD.


is
 
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bennybbbx

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Yes! A lot! And ILD, and a lot more you haven't heard anything about yet.

Is the above link i post not good enough ?. what stand in this book . do they aggree or disagree to this statemtent (from link above)

The minimum detectable interaural time difference is 10microseconds or 0.000010s, corresponding to a shift in sound source location by 10 in azimuth relative to straight ahead (consistent with the minimum audible angle).

also you can answer if you aggree or not aggree to this.

another question. see in this post the waveform after 1.5 khz Filter https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...or-itd-see-measures.28585/page-5#post-1002508

In left channel the woofer/mid need move in same time range out in out in out. It need 4 direction changes and the right speaker need in this time no direction changes. because the left speaker need move more, it need play much higher frequency and have shorter wavelength. Do you really think a steep crossover filter and slow system is able to produce the peaks at a precision of 10 µsec exact with a speaker that can only play 5 khz - 3db. ???? thats a period time of 200 µec or 20 times more as 10 µsec . the tweeter do nothing on this frequency because it is lower as 1.5 khz
 

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the JBL phase response look strange in aorund 450 hz. i dont know wy
With proper windowing the phase looks absolutely OK:
1638972860563.png


360° total rotation around XO --> 4th order acoustic.
 

markus

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Is the above link i post not good enough ?. what stand in this book . do they aggree or disagree to this statemtent (from link above)



also you can answer if you aggree or not aggree to this.

Blauert was actually one of the people that helped define those numbers by doing the actual scientific work. It doesn't matter whether I agree or not, the numbers are the outcome of actual scientific research. Again you just demonstrate your lack of knowledge. At the same time you seem to think that people here wouldn't know such basic facts. Rest assured the opposite is the case.

another question. see in this post the waveform after 1.5 khz Filter https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...or-itd-see-measures.28585/page-5#post-1002508

In left channel the woofer/mid need move in same time range out in out in out. It need 4 direction changes and the right speaker need in this time no direction changes. because the left speaker need move more, it need play much higher frequency and have shorter wavelength. Do you really think a steep crossover filter and slow system is able to produce the peaks at a precision of 10 µsec exact with a speaker that can only play 5 khz - 3db. ???? thats a period time of 200 µec or 20 times more as 10 µsec . the tweeter do nothing on this frequency because it is lower as 1.5 khz

You're still profoundly confused by cause and effect.

One last attempt: imagine two parallel train tracks, each with a train on it. Both trains drive exactly 50km/h. Is it possible that one of the trains arrives 0.0001ms before the other? The answer is of course yes, as the arrival solely depends on when each train has started to move. Whether one train could go 100km/h and the other 250km/h is irrelevant to the question.

Please do yourself a favor and get one of the books above. Let's talk again when you're done reading.
 
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With proper windowing the phase looks absolutely OK:
View attachment 171101

360° total rotation around XO --> 4th order acoustic.

The jbl have a 6 db crossover stand in specs. maybe you can explain this more, wy this should be ok. phase should from 150 hz upto 1.2 khz at least good for ITD. In post at 150 hz have 331 deg . on 1 khz have 120. it is 221 deg phase error. on active speakers often there is no phase plot here on amirm Tests. on passive speakers amirm post phases the phase errors are much less . in this cheap speaker the phase error is onl 40 deg


in the link i post are audio examples for ITD. when hear with the JBL i not hear the 300 hz tone out of noise. when hear with the headphone i hear it very clear. so it is clear there can be better speakers produce.

this example i mean
B) Example 2: same as in (A) but with a 1800 IPD for the sine signal. In spite of the level difference between noise and signal, the sine tone is now perceivable.

can others hear the tone on speakers ?
 
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