Standards for Audio Electronics Measurements?

[Rick Sykora]

Would leave standards to trade/industry orgs, but perhaps some ASR target specifications could be useful. Maybe a minimum set for every major component category and an extended set to cover additional ones that require special equipment or more complex methods to produce.

Suggest it might be more essential to get buy in from vendors rather than members too.

 

[Robbo99999]

This is the problem I am trying to solve. I spend considerable amount of time testing products that just don't perform. Even major suppliers of equipment to ASR are missing the mark causing me to abandon the review. If you see days go by without a review, this is probably the reason.

You would think there is clear understanding of what is expected but for some reason, language or otherwise, it doesn't seem to be the case. Folks come with all the willingness and respect in the world to get their gear tested, only to have such an outcome. I personally feel bad that I have not clearly stipulated such minimum performance criteria. Ironically, you all know this a lot better than manufacturers!

You could just skip this whole public process and just tell them privately roughly what you're looking for as generally ASR community is happy with how you test & rate products. We just see your reviews and make our decisions re purchases. DACs just aren't controversial really in terms of measurement as many of us are already happy with the green SINAD standard in your charts, and headphone amps I think are quite well sorted with what we'd like to expect. I would think there's more room for manoeuvre in speaker amp measurement and specs as I get the feeling that power levels are more critical in this area and good measurements are harder to come by so less likely for these products to fit into the "overkill" category.

It won't be. Guidelines need to be simple and easy to do using measurements. This is the need right now.

For speakers/headphones, we could get into that but not electronics.

That seems a little bit like you might be admitting that pretty much all the DACS you test fall into the "inaudible" category.

 

[amirm]

You could just skip this whole public process and just tell them privately roughly what you're looking for as generally ASR community is happy with how you test & rate products.

The problem is that they get to know this after they designed the product and reach out to me for review.

 

[Anton D]

If you only test or review stuff you already know satisfies your parameters, then 'reviewing' is simply a matter of verification?

It would seem redundant, other than reporting that these devices measure according to your own notions.

It sounds like you are already having some electronic ennui. Knowing the results in advance and merely putting on an verification sticker would seem mind bogglingly boring.

Creating guidelines, as well. This might not be a hobby requiring hegemony.

I don't know if that would raise happiness levels.

 

[CleanSound]

Nothing wrong with the concept. Just remember ASR readers represent a very small percentage of audio consumers. Most consumers do not care if what they listen to meets an ASR consensus of what is the threshold of "hi-fi."

100%

 

[amirm]

If you only test or review stuff you already know satisfies your parameters, then 'reviewing' is simply a matter of verification?

The testing would be much more extensive than these guidelines. It will also include subjective evaluation of looks, function, etc.

Now, if such guidelines eventually put me out of business with everyone complying, that wouldn't be such a bad outcome!

 

[amirm]

The majority of consumers don't even care if they are listening to lossless music, and for a lot of their listening it is just a background thing or in autos.

Our audience is audiophile enthusiasts who a) researchers products online and b) is interested in learning about technology. In that space, we are a big fish with some the highest traffic on the web.

While we also have some influence over mass market products, that is not yet part of our charter or goal.

 

[CleanSound]

BTW, seems like I made a mistake by calling this a "standard." I have no intention of creating a standard. I simply want to let people know that if you produce a product with less than this minimum level of performance, chance of me recommending it will be very low. But even if you met it, you may not get a recommendation for other reasons but it won't be because you missed these aspects.

I'm curious to know how many of those equipment that was sent in by the manufacturer themselves that measured poorly. My guess is that, not many, because they know you will stack rank them, so manufacturers are less inclined to go on a suicide mission. But you have the numbers and I'm curious to know.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

It would also be great if freq response was specified at -3 dB points and amp power was in sustained RMS, though the marketing folks might go epileptic at the thought.

Just need standards to compare apples to apples. Most manufacturers specifications are inconsistent, misleading and incomplete.

 

[Karmacoma]

A normative work is definitely needed, I'll extrapolate and say this industry needs some decent norms, the form though should ideally be simplified for those measurements to be associated directly with the attested earing threshold of the most sensitive ears, not engineering prowess, i know how difficult that would be to implement regarding the nature of audio components and their interactions, just dreaming of a ''true hifi'' label of some sort that would appear in the description of audio gear.
But I know I'm dreaming.

 

[SoundsGood2Me]

THANK YOU AMIRM

Go Get 'em

 

[JPA]

So I keep running into companies who send me products with best intentions but miss key aspects that cause me to not recommend. And example is a very nice dongle I recently received that had balanced output but was limited to just 2 volts out. If you don't know, I like to see minimum of 4 volts out from such a port as otherwise, you can find unbalanced dongles at lower cost that do that.

Another example is channel balance issue with had with an AIYIMA amp where there was almost 1 dB differential.

Yet another is expected SINAD for an amplifier. Yes, we don't rate amps on that one number but if SINAD is say, 60 dB, the rest are going to follow.

In many cases decision makers are not knowledgeable in these companies so proudly show me the gear, only then realizing they could have built something better, but didn't.

Note that my focus here is for electronics only. And I am thinking about the fewest key criteria that passes the "acceptable" mark from me, and by implication, from you all. They can do better of course to get higher praise but want to establish what we like to see.

An example for a dongle:

Output voltage: at least 2 volts on unbalanced, 4 volts on balanced.
SINAD: 100 dB or better, 1 kHz, 22.4 kHz bandwidth
SNR at 50mv: 85 dB (?)
SNR at full 2/4 volt output: 110 dB (?)
Output impedance < 1 ohm

Example for Amplifier:
SINAD >= 80 dB
SNR >= 110 dB (?)
Channel balance < 0.5 dB
Crosstalk > 70 dB @20 kHz


This would be presented as general guidelines for companies to adopt (or not). The point of this thread is not to discuss the specifics although you can, but determine if it is time for us to do this. Hate to have companies ready to produce performant products based on objective measurements but not know clearly what those measurements should be.

What say you?

It sounds to me like you're considering becoming THXv2 or THX-lite. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I wonder if you've considered all the implications.

 

[amirm]

Not necessarily a bad thing, but I wonder if you've considered all the implications.

I am not going there as I have repeatedly said (a formal mark and certification). But we could. I can certainly see having specifications that are required to get the excellent rating.

 

[GXAlan]

I am not going there as I have repeatedly said (a formal mark and certification). But we could. I can certainly see having specifications that are required to get the excellent rating.

That’s a business decision.

I miss the old THX standard where you knew all the products were 3.2 ohm stable and they were reliable. This is one of the best publicly available documents on what THX certification really means

THX-Certification - HomeTheaterHifi.com

THX is almost a quarter century old, and its Consumer Branch has been around since 1990, yet people still do not have a proper understanding of THX. Maybe that's THX's fault, maybe it's ours (the press) . . .

hometheaterhifi.com

THX product starts with the manufacturer purchasing the expensive and confidential THX Design Manual for the product in question. THX products are designed to be THX products. The manufacturer knows what they have to do from square one. Once they have a working sample, it is sent to THX where it is tested, for a fee, and either checks out and a license granted, or it is sent back with a report on what needs to be addressed. THX tells us that they have yet to receive a product which got everything 100% right on the first try.

Licensees then pay a small per-unit license fee for the manufactured product.

THX had the benefit of its affiliation with Lucasfilm and of course, the amazing opening trailer.

The question is if, in the world of new hi-fi, where companies like Schiit and Topping outperform classic brands like PS Audio or Mark Levinson there is value in having a ASR-type certification.

THX licensing has dried up, and maybe it’s because their standards ended up being too lax? Or the perception changed?

Maybe there’s a way for you to work with Razer to recreate a modern THX Stereo program, using their funds as an investment to revitalize the power and value of THX certification…

We can look at MQA’s attempt to standardize a digital filter and all sorts of digital filters that exist today. Maybe the sharp roll off becomes the new THX Stereo specification so you can have consistency.

The old THX standard gain was 29 dB for the amp.
Knowing what we know now, does it make sense to change it so that the THX Stereo spec is a lower gain for the amp but higher pre-out voltage?

Working with THX might give you the startup funds and branding that makes it viable for equipment manufacturers and I have to imagine that THX would appreciate a revitalization of that licensing stream.

 

[TimoJ]

This is the problem I am trying to solve. I spend considerable amount of time testing products that just don't perform. Even major suppliers of equipment to ASR are missing the mark causing me to abandon the review. If you see days go by without a review, this is probably the reason.

Why not release at least some info/warning about them?

 

[dtaylo1066]

Our audience is audiophile enthusiasts who a) researchers products online and b) is interested in learning about technology. In that space, we are a big fish with some the highest traffic on the web.

While we also have some influence over mass market products, that is not yet part of our charter or goal.

Yes, aware of that and agree, and I fit the bill. And I agree and support that some sort of minimum threshold for measurements would be cool. UL approved comes to mind. I think most of the manufacturers would run the other way, though. And you might be making a lot more work for yourself if some did not! Be careful what you wish for, I guess, is my point.

A lot of egos and BS at many of the audio companies.

At present it seems the Toppings and SMSLs of the world are happy to send you stuff, as are a few smaller companies, like Buckeye, as it is great exposure for them. And I will give a lot of credit to U.S. companies like Schiit who send in pieces for review. But how many will want to, is the question, along with your capacity?

Of course you could set the threshold standards and just keep the same amount of reviews and ran accordingly, but that kind of happens in a de facto way already.

At any rate, good idea and on with the show.

 

[dtaylo1066]

The testing would be much more extensive than these guidelines. It will also include subjective evaluation of looks, function, etc.

Now, if such guidelines eventually put me out of business with everyone complying, that wouldn't be such a bad outcome!

No it would not! I just hope that such guidelines don't eventually burn you out or overload you.

 

[GXAlan]

UL approved comes to mind.

I think this is more valuable than SINAD.

In a way, having something tested by a nationally recognized testing lab, is something we should be able to see from a photo or spec sheet, but it would be nice to say that to get a golfing panther in 2024 for an AC mains powered device, your power supply or device should have UL, CSA, ETL, CQC certification or whatever other NRTL makes sense for the country of manufacture.

 

[daniboun]

Another example is channel balance issue with had with an AIYIMA amp where there was almost 1 dB differential.

Hi Amir
Can you share the link to this example. I will share my point of view then ))

 

[Sokel]

Hi Amir
Can you share the link to this example. I will share my point of view then ))

Aiyima A07 Max Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Aiyima A07 Max stereo class D amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and sells for (I think) $85 with the included power supply: I like the little design touches and the much heavier enclosure (made out of steel?). I really appreciate the...

www.audiosciencereview.com