Speaker choice - Neumann, Dutch & Dutch, KEF

[YSC]

It's exactly as you say. See attached the measurements of the 8361s out of GLM. As you can see the peaks in the bass region are lowered, but there are substantial dips. It's just not possible to get a flat response below 200 Hz with a system like that (without subs / W371). With the Kii BXT, I have one small dip at aprox. 30 Hz, other than that they are flat +/- 1.5 db from 20 Hz to 20 kHz at my listening position, although I have taken down the treble a bit. The dip is less pronounced as with the other systems.

With the 8C, I have similar dips below 100 Hz as with the Genelecs but not at the exact same frequencies (probably due to driver positioning and closed box vs. bass reflex). I had measured them all at the same listening position but now they are in three different rooms and I will not do the heavy lifting to put them back and re-measure everything. The Genelec measurement, I still had saved in the GLM.

Yes that's what I mean, I wonders did you follow Genelec's advise and put the 8361s very close to the back wall at 5cm distance? that should push the cancellation to the directional HF which don't affect the bass response at all, while the bass boost can be eliminated by GLM. that worked perfectly for my 8030 and should be much better on 8361. though I would say for genelec to compete with the 8C and Kii you need a sub to make it complete, much like the Kii would like the BXT module

 

[HooStat]

I can see that the discussion has gone long and far -- much of it very interesting.

I thought I would report back -- we ended up deciding to go with the KEF R2C center and R3. Then we will get rid of my JL Audio 113 sub and get two smaller subs instead, mostly hidden in the room. We opted for a 3.2 system, which made any investment in more expensive speakers run off of an AVR seem like a waste. Maybe for a future 2-channel system I will circle back to Genelec/Dutch & Dutch/Kii.

Thanks to everyone for their input. Carry on with the other discussions.

 

[YSC]

I can see that the discussion has gone long and far -- much of it very interesting.

I thought I would report back -- we ended up deciding to go with the KEF R2C center and R3. Then we will get rid of my JL Audio 113 sub and get two smaller subs instead, mostly hidden in the room. We opted for a 3.2 system, which made any investment in more expensive speakers run off of an AVR seem like a waste. Maybe for a future 2-channel system I will circle back to Genelec/Dutch & Dutch/Kii.

Thanks to everyone for their input. Carry on with the other discussions.

that's nice choice, as the R3 was measured here also having a very nice response and personally I like KEF UniQ array's look a lot, for home theatre the point source likely did better for family enjoyment also as I bet you and your wife/kids won't sit still in the sweet spot and not moving around, AVR's SINAD wouldn't benefit much from best speakers anyway I suppose.

The change is quick and sharp though, as seeing the 8C in the OP it looks like you were into top end 2 channel

 

[Frank Dernie]

Hi Frank, Kii three has active cardioid response from 50Hz up to 800Hz, they address elegantly the nulls and peak in the bass and mid bass.
you can place then very close to front wall without ruin the bass performance with comb filtering. the BXT non only add headroom in the lower octaves but also play as vertical array .
Reducing ceiling and floor reflection.
(check B. Putzeys video).
it’s a concept taken from pro audio that works pretty well in room. When I say directivity means very narrow and controlled directivity of the (almost) entire spectrum horizontally and vertically (w BXT).
best

Correct for reduced comb filtering and ceiling and floor reflection.
False for excitation of room modes producing peaks and nulls in the bass. This entirely depends on the location of the bass source and its distance from boundaries.
The W371 addresses this using 2 bass sources, one near the floor the other as far from it as feasible in the cabinet and using them both to cancel the nulls and peaks as much as possible.
It is possible that the BXT with the number of bass units it contains, could theoretically do this too but I have not seen it claimed (though I have not looked)

 

[TimVG]

It's exactly as you say. See attached the measurements of the 8361s out of GLM. As you can see the peaks in the bass region are lowered, but there are substantial dips.

Just a remark, but that's quite an odd rising response in the treble. You'd expect given some distance the treble to slope down, which would be normal and desirable. Even in the nearfield it should never be more than just 'flat'. You're confident the microphone orientation was correct? No dip switches engaged on the back?

 

[YSC]

Just a remark, but that's quite an odd rising response in the treble. You'd expect given some distance the treble to slope down, which would be normal and desirable. Even in the nearfield it should never be more than just 'flat'. You're confident the microphone orientation was correct? No dip switches engaged on the back?

the shape looks like the Treble Tilt +2db switch was on

 

[TimVG]

the shape looks like the Treble Tilt +2db switch was on

I wonder if the 'artificial treble' the poster mentioned has something to do with this. It could also be one of the others though (microphone orientation, dip switch (I'm not sure if they work in combination with GLM).

 

[YSC]

I wonder if the 'artificial treble' the poster mentioned has something to do with this. It could also be one of the others though (microphone orientation, dip switch (I'm not sure if they work in combination with GLM).

I think so, the dip switch looks like analogue control and GLM was controlling the DSP in the path

 

[alont]

I can see that the discussion has gone long and far -- much of it very interesting.

I thought I would report back -- we ended up deciding to go with the KEF R2C center and R3. Then we will get rid of my JL Audio 113 sub and get two smaller subs instead, mostly hidden in the room. We opted for a 3.2 system, which made any investment in more expensive speakers run off of an AVR seem like a waste. Maybe for a future 2-channel system I will circle back to Genelec/Dutch & Dutch/Kii.

Thanks to everyone for their input. Carry on with the other discussions.

Congrats on your purchase! For best performance I recommend you ensure the KEF R3's shadow flare is well seated and I highly recommend trying to EQ them - they have excellent directivity and respond well to EQing.

 

[Lorenzo74]

Correct for reduced comb filtering and ceiling and floor reflection.
False for excitation of room modes producing peaks and nulls in the bass. This entirely depends on the location of the bass source and its distance from boundaries.
The W371 addresses this using 2 bass sources, one near the floor the other as far from it as feasible in the cabinet and using them both to cancel the nulls and peaks as much as possible.
It is possible that the BXT with the number of bass units it contains, could theoretically do this too but I have not seen it claimed (though I have not looked)

Hi Frank, I was expecting from you a more depth analysis before your conclusion.
however it’s Christmas, you’re forgiven.
Kii three produces bass with rear 6.5 woofer in opposite polarity to delayed lateral ones. Then produce mid-bass with lateral woofers and front one (delayed of course).
The BXT seemly blend with the speaker turining the assembly into full cardioid horizontal and vertical, nothing available by
genelec, at any price.
It’s similar concept of any pro cardio subs plus vertical array but executed with the care the inventor of UCD, Hypex and Eigentakt is renown for.
hope this help
Best

 

[Old Listener]

I have Aspergers so I do tend to be blunt.

Your anecdote was ruined for me by the attributions I highlighted.

I come here to get away from this sort of thing which is common everywhere else.
Sorry.

I'm with you. Nothing wrong with reporting personal experience. However, all the unsupported generalizations really raised my hackles.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Hi Frank, I was expecting from you a more depth analysis before your conclusion.
however it’s Christmas, you’re forgiven.
Kii three produces bass with rear 6.5 woofer in opposite polarity to delayed lateral ones. Then produce mid-bass with lateral woofers and front one (delayed of course).
The BXT seemly blend with the speaker turining the assembly into full cardioid horizontal and vertical, nothing available by
genelec, at any price.
It’s similar concept of any pro cardio subs plus vertical array but executed with the care the inventor of UCD, Hypex and Eigentakt is renown for.
hope this help
Best

I know all that.
What you seem to have failed to understand is that cardioid response, whilst beneficial, will not prevent the speaker exciting room modes depending on its location relative to the room boundary.
This is an inevitable. To what extent multiple bass units spread the excitation making it easier to compensate I don't know.
The W371, OTOH was conceived with this as one of the objectives in mind, cardioid is its other "mode".
Kii may be better for cardioid, W371 has the even bass mode too.
AFAIK Kii don't have anything capable of this.

 

[Purité Audio]

That’s correct, you can use the inbuilt peq filters of course, I haven’t seen any data which proves the efficacy of the W371 system in a real room though?
The systems where I have seen them in use, including Genelecs own demonstration rooms use them simply as stands for the mains.
I hope to have a set here at some point, and compare to a sink source 8C set up.
Keith

 

[Frank Dernie]

That’s correct, you can use the inbuilt peq filters of course, I haven’t seen any data which proves the efficacy of the W371 system in a real room though?
The systems where I have seen them in use, including Genelecs own demonstration rooms use them simply as stands for the mains.
I hope to have a set here at some point, and compare to a sink source 8C set up.
Keith

 

[richard12511]

Just a remark, but that's quite an odd rising response in the treble. You'd expect given some distance the treble to slope down, which would be normal and desirable. Even in the nearfield it should never be more than just 'flat'. You're confident the microphone orientation was correct? No dip switches engaged on the back?

That was my first thought, too. Something is wrong with the 8361 treble in that graph. It shouldn't look like that. Mine have a nice rolloff that looks very different.

@judgespear , do you have the +2 treble dip switch engaged? I've never tried it, so not exactly sure how it should look with the +2 on, but on the default settings I see a gentle downward slope from ~6-15kHZ, and then a steeper drop off after that. I've measured from many different positions as well as extensive MM measurements, and the HF tilt is very consistent.

I attached mine for comparison. I have the 8351b, but looking at Genelec's own measurements, I would expect the 8361 to have even more HF tilt, if anything.

Maybe you mentioned before, but what distance was that measurement taken at?

 

[Purité Audio]

I have read everything on the site, I was hoping for some actual ‘in-room’ comparative plots.
I can see that with the 371s you can pull your monitors further away from the walls , which might be useful.
HHB have a London showroom I will make an appointment once allowed.
Keith

 

[richard12511]

Hi Frank, I was expecting from you a more depth analysis before your conclusion.
however it’s Christmas, you’re forgiven.
Kii three produces bass with rear 6.5 woofer in opposite polarity to delayed lateral ones. Then produce mid-bass with lateral woofers and front one (delayed of course).
The BXT seemly blend with the speaker turining the assembly into full cardioid horizontal and vertical, nothing available by
genelec, at any price.
It’s similar concept of any pro cardio subs plus vertical array but executed with the care the inventor of UCD, Hypex and Eigentakt is renown for.
hope this help
Best

I think his point was more that cardioid response sub 100Hz(and maybe even up to 200Hz) doesn't really matter, as what you hear is the steady state response that is dominated by room modes. To counter, what you really need are multiple subs scattered about the room. If you can't have that, then the next best option is something like W371, which uses woofers placed as far apart in space as possible(for a single tower) to then intelligently shape the steady state room response. As far as I know, the Kii Three(even with BXT) doesn't do this, so you'd end up with a much more peaky/dippy response than what you'd get with the W371A.

As for how low a cardioid response is beneficial? @napilopez posted some graphs that show it potentially helping down to 100Hz, but I've also seen some very knowledgeable folks say that below 200Hz is more luck of the draw is to whether it helps or hurts(depends on the room). I'd love to see a speaker that could turn it on and off at different frequencies(like 50, 100, 150, 200Hz) and measure the in room differences. I think the GGNKTK has this, but only down to 200Hz? My impressions of the 8C were incredible, but I don't know how much of that was due to the cardioid shaping, and I've never heard the Kii to compare.

 

[TimVG]

That was my first thought, too. Something is wrong with the 8361 treble in that graph. It shouldn't look like that. Mine have a nice rolloff that looks very different.

That looks fantastic. I would say almost too good! Is this with full range EQ perhaps?

 

[richard12511]

Interesting! So you can flip between cardioid to 50Hz mode and null shaping mode? As @Purité Audio said, I'd love to see several in room measurements of all 3 modes to see how well those modes work in real rooms. My guess is the null shaping mode would be better below 100Hz, but could really depend on the room. Always nice to have 3 options, though .

 

[onion]

Some GLM measurements of the W371 in a listener's room using the three different modes posted on this ASR thread