Speaker choice - Neumann, Dutch & Dutch, KEF

[judgespear]

I would guess there's anti-correlation between users of microphones for measurement and users of the descriptor, "plankton"...

There is not. I'm a sound engineer with 25 years of experience in professional audio AND high-end audio. I'm a big fan of measurements. The problem that there are many things we don't measure or don't know how to measure. Can you measure how detailled/transparent a tweeter sounds? A dome tweeter always sounds "edgier" and has more sound artefacts than a planar tweeter due to the mass inertia. How can you measure that? A planar tweeter can play loud but doesn't have the same sound dynamics as a dome tweeter. Which measurement shows that?

 

[judgespear]

I found the Genelecs (8341 with subs) much much less fatiguing and more detailed than the Kiis. The bass is much easier to control with GLM than with the control switches for the Kiis. I've never heard the Kiis with the BXT module - I think the best comparison for that system would be Genelec Ones + W371. I don't know if anyone has tried that?

I agree that the Genelecs superficially sound more detailled at first. That's the sound of the tweeter. But they are not as transparent as the Kiis. Also, I agree that the ones with subs are less fatiguiging than the Kiis. That's due to the overall lower distortions. With the Kii3 + BXT, I don't have to make any adjustments other than the boundary setting. The coherency is much better than a satellite + sub system without any adjustments necessary.

 

[judgespear]

hi @judgespear, glad to be your first "like" it is 50% for the post (it resonate to me but I've listened only to Kii Three) and 50% for the fact you decided to invest in my favorite speakers the German (with Belgian brain) and the Dutch.
Go ahead and post measurements and pictures. we'll love to know more. and hurry up, @hardisj is going to reveal the secret of D&D 8C and hopefully of the Kii three soon after if somewhere @ Kii will be so kind to loan him a pair.
enjoy (one of) the best forum
my Best
Lorenzo

Thanks for you kind reply Unfortunately, I have way too much work to take good pictures or make measurements. I'm sure @hardisj will do a better job than I would and I'm looking forward to that.

 

[Purité Audio]

Any old pictures will do,
Keith

 

[dc655321]

I'm a sound engineer with 25 years of experience in professional audio AND high-end audio.

And yet...

Can you measure how detailled/transparent a tweeter sounds? A dome tweeter always sounds "edgier" and has more sound artefacts than a planar tweeter due to the mass inertia. How can you measure that?

If effects are audible, they are measurable with a microphone, naturally.

 

[TimVG]

Can you measure how detailled/transparent a tweeter sounds? A dome tweeter always sounds "edgier" and has more sound artefacts than a planar tweeter due to the mass inertia.

With statements such as these, and by no means am I saying they cannot be true, it would help if they were backed up by the results of some sort of objective test. Preferably several tests.

 

[Pearljam5000]

The bass of the 8361 is more of a "typical" bass-reflex bass. There's at least one octave missing and you hear that. Maybe one of the reasons the 8361 sounds more analytical. The sound "balance" is very different. The 8C on the other hand emphazises the bass. The bass is a bit bloaty or thick in comparison to the other speakers. It plays more easeful (bass headroom) but is difficult to dial-in with absolute precision. In my case, I had a room with a wall on one side and a window on the other side (back-wall)¨and I had to re-arrange the whole room to make the 8C work. The two speakers couldn't sound more different. The 8C lacks resolution, "plankton" and micro dynamics in my opinion. It sounds very smooths, open (mid-range), dynamics and natural. It's brilliant for percussive instruments and drums. The Genelec sounds better resolved and due to the Coax you can sit closer. As one octave is missing in the bass, it can play louder than the Dutch in my opinion. It also images wonderfully (L-R) but not so much in the depth. The cardoid speakers are much better in rendering the depth of the recording, especially the Kiis.

The Kiis are MUCH more transparent and resolving than the Dutch 8C. If you listen to the Kiis alone then the bass is very precise and tight and is the only speaker that really hits 20 Hz of the bunch. I mean in real-life not in spec-sheets. But when you crank it up, you feel (more feel than hear) the distortion as it gets annoying and stressful to listen to. When you add the BXT, there is no practical head-room limit for the home user. The bass is more fleshed out and even more precise. The system becomes much more relaxed and competent. It's like going from a small 4 cylinder engine to a 6.8L V8. Interestingly though, drums still sound more open and dynamic on the D&D 8C. I think this is due to the open (vented) mid-range driver, that doesn't have to work against an air-mass. It sounds more like a freely moving drum head than the other speakers. The Kiis have by far the best DACs and DSP-math built in. The transparency and coherency of the system are exceptional. Especially the timbres of instruments are the most accurate, I've ever heard on any system anywhere. Also the Kiis sound much better controlled (or dryer if you will), excite less room modes and create less wall reflections than the D&D 8C. That's probably where the impression of accuracy is coming from.

Sorry I got a bit off track regarding your question...

You're probably the only one on the planet that owns all 3.
So we also need a detailed comparison of 8361A and Kii Three if possible, thanks

 

[HooStat]

So we also need a detailed comparison of 8361A and Kii Three if possible, thanks

I agree. But it might deserve its own thread, and would be best augmented with measurements.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I agree. But it might deserve its own thread, and would be best augmented with measurements.

Absolutely, I would like that too but it seems too much to ask so I was trying to be gentle

 

[stevenswall]

if you check product specs the kii plus bxt offer an active directivity control from 50Hz up to 20kHz. Genelec don’t.
best

Are you saying it only does "passive" directivity control? Seems like the graphs for the w371 show controlled directivity from 60hz up. I don't show any graphs from Kii, but I'd be curious if they do it better. (Louder and lower and still controlled at 50hz.)

 

[onion]

For the price of a Kii Three and BXT system one could also get a Genelec w371 pair with 8351B and get both vertical and horizontal directivity control with enough to spare for some surrounds and a GLM kit.

I'd love to hear those two systems side by side, and then compare with my 8260+swarm subwoofer array.

I'd love to hear about your swarm array - is it using Genelec subs or others? How to integrate to the 8260s? How many subs? Difference in sound quality significant between two and three subs? I have Genelec Ones with two subs atm, thinking of adding another soon

 

[YSC]

This discussion is going into very expensive territory

 

[stevenswall]

I'd love to hear about your swarm array - is it using Genelec subs or others? How to integrate to the 8260s? How many subs? Difference in sound quality significant between two and three subs? I have Genelec Ones with two subs atm, thinking of adding another soon

A MiniDSP will handle the crossover. Four subwoofers. Looks up "The Swarm" subwoofer by Duke or "DEBRA" subwoofer by James Romeyn. I'm demoing the latter early January.

If I could afford 4x Genelec subwoofers, I'd likely go that route though the floor space and twice the number of cables might be less convenient.

Previously had 2 PSA subwoofers... They sounded very different from the Genelecs. Multiple positions, REW measurements, EQ, had to return them. Likely 3 subwoofers would have been closer as I could have fixed some additional issues around the listening area, but my guess is I'd want 4 anyway, because sometimes I sit on the floor, stand, or walk away to get a drink, and want the bass as even as possible just like the 8260 speakers that smoothly and gradually roll off.

 

[stevenswall]

Can you measure how detailed/transparent a tweeter sounds? A dome tweeter always sounds "edgier" and has more sound artefacts than a planar tweeter due to the mass inertia. How can you measure that? A planar tweeter can play loud but doesn't have the same sound dynamics as a dome tweeter. Which measurement shows that?

Yes, in multiple domains.

Dome tweeters don't have an inherent sound frequency response wise. Planar tweeters and domes can have their impulse response and ringing measured if you're worried about inertia.

Not sure about "having the same dynamics," do you ever notice speakers acting like a dynamic range compressor? I don't when operating them well within their limits. Seems most of the time people mean "total volume capabilities" when talking about dynamics... Which all can be measured.

 

[judgespear]

With statements such as these, and by no means am I saying they cannot be true, it would help if they were backed up by the results of some sort of objective test. Preferably several tests.

I wouldn't know how to test this other than in blind tests. If I do blind test comparisons between the Kiis and D&D for example, I hear the difference 100% of the time. So anyone saying that they are very close, I cannot understand how they come to that conclusion. Also if I blind test versus a planar, they are so much "faster" than a dome tweeter, that the additional micro details are also obvious. The way sound is produced is just different. Just like the difference between the pictures of OLED vs. QLED TVs. Likewise any driver type/material sounds different. How the "objectivists" can question this is beyond me, as the differences are so stark. Build two speakers that measure exactly the same using different driver types or just different enclosure materials and the speakers will sound completely different as any material has its own inherent sound chrachteristics. An aluminum enclosure sounds completely different than an MDF one, even if they are incredibly well damped.

 

[Purité Audio]

I would very much like to see some photographs of your speakers, can you post some?
Thanks,
Keith

 

[judgespear]

You're probably the only one on the planet that owns all 3.
So we also need a detailed comparison of 8361A and Kii Three if possible, thanks

The Genelecs sound more excited or "superficially" detailled, you could also say analytical. If you listen a while, you realize that the Kiis are actually more detailled. Instrument separation is better, soundstage and depth is better, timbre much more accurate, coherency throughout the entire frequency range is better. My BXT system is so flat without additional EQ that I cannot achieve the same result with the GLM3 Kit. The Genelec sounds more like a conventional speaker and is less transparent. Detail and transparency are not the same for me. But on the other hand, even though the Kiis create such a feeling of "correctness" and natural timbres they also sound a bit processed. It's very hard to explain how something can sound natural and processed at the same time but they do. In my opinion, the appeal of the Kii system is not some "stellar" performance attributes but more that all the DSP processing corrects so many typical mistakes speakers make. So they reduce typical mistakes or speaker/room problems. They have fewer flaws than other speakers. The price is this slightly processed feeling which doesn't go away with EQing or optimizing the source. The nagging feeling that you normally have, if a speaker has an obvious flaw, isn't here. That's the difference for me.

In my room the D&D has the obvious flaws of not being detailled enough (for me) and having slightly less controlled bass than the Kiis. The Genelecs have the "flaws" of the missing bottom octave and slightly "hot" sound. They even sound a bit horn-like (dynamic wise). I'm sure they sound much better with two subs or the W371, I just haven't heard them with bass support. If this sounds negative, I must add that I absolutely love the Genelecs and their sound signature. It's super exciting and lively more so than the other two systems. They probably are also the most bang for the buck of the three. They are built like tanks and probably absolutely fail-proof. For mixing I prefer the Genelecs over the Kiis (better translation for me).

 

[YSC]

I wouldn't know how to test this other than in blind tests. If I do blind test comparisons between the Kiis and D&D for example, I hear the difference 100% of the time. So anyone saying that they are very close, I cannot understand how they come to that conclusion. Also if I blind test versus a planar, they are so much "faster" than a dome tweeter, that the additional micro details are also obvious. The way sound is produced is just different. Just like the difference between the pictures of OLED vs. QLED TVs. Likewise any driver type/material sounds different. How the "objectivists" can question this is beyond me, as the differences are so stark. Build two speakers that measure exactly the same using different driver types or just different enclosure materials and the speakers will sound completely different as any material has its own inherent sound chrachteristics. An aluminum enclosure sounds completely different than an MDF one, even if they are incredibly well damped.

You are such lucky guy who can afford all these for a try, I won’t say it’s impossible as I believe the different directivity and calibration mechanism should make some difference in time domain, FR in some point etc. But I would say I would be more than satisfied and call it end game way below this sound quality, namely give me a single genelec 7040A to companion my 8030Cs without taking away my legroom under my desk

 

[Frank Dernie]

I think the Devialets used to have latency problems that made movies difficult. Don't know if that's been solved yet

I have a pair of Silver Phantoms from the first production batch.
They are not my main speakers but I have had them set up such that they are connected to the optical output of my TV tuner. My video screen is about 1m further from me than the speakers but actually any latency in this layout is not enough for a noticeable problem.
I originally bought them partly because I liked the technology but mainly because they looked like a really good choice for rear channels and distributed bass for watching films, with my Devialet Expert amped main speakers as the fronts.
Unfortunately this never got added to the software and I was told that tying the timing of the Phantoms and Expert was the reason they didn't continue with it.

But fo using the Phantoms as the main channels for TV in stereo latency is not a problem here, they actually work really well.

 

[Pearljam5000]

The Genelecs sound more excited or "superficially" detailled, you could also say analytical. If you listen a while, you realize that the Kiis are actually more detailled. Instrument separation is better, soundstage and depth is better, timbre much more accurate, coherency throughout the entire frequency range is better. My BXT system is so flat without additional EQ that I cannot achieve the same result with the GLM3 Kit. The Genelec sounds more like a conventional speaker and is less transparent. Detail and transparency are not the same for me. But on the other hand, even though the Kiis create such a feeling of "correctness" and natural timbres they also sound a bit processed. It's very hard to explain how something can sound natural and processed at the same time but they do. In my opinion, the appeal of the Kii system is not some "stellar" performance attributes but more that all the DSP processing corrects so many typical mistakes speakers make. So they reduce typical mistakes or speaker/room problems. They have fewer flaws than other speakers. The price is this slightly processed feeling which doesn't go away with EQing or optimizing the source. The nagging feeling that you normally have, if a speaker has an obvious flaw, isn't here. That's the difference for me.

In my room the D&D has the obvious flaws of not being detailled enough (for me) and having slightly less controlled bass than the Kiis. The Genelecs have the "flaws" of the missing bottom octave and slightly "hot" sound. They even sound a bit horn-like (dynamic wise). I'm sure they sound much better with two subs or the W371, I just haven't heard them with bass support. If this sounds negative, I must add that I absolutely love the Genelecs and their sound signature. It's super exciting and lively more so than the other two systems. They probably are also the most bang for the buck of the three. They are built like tanks and probably absolutely fail-proof. For mixing I prefer the Genelecs over the Kiis (better translation for me).

Thanks really appreciated it
Very interesting findings.
If I had all 3 of them i would never leave the house lol.