• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

Speaker choice - Neumann, Dutch & Dutch, KEF

TimVG

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 16, 2019
Messages
815
Likes
1,484
Everything was correct. Ni dip switches engaged. I had to take down the treble with the sound profiler by -4db. Microphone was 1m away. Exactly in my near-field listening position.
Was the microphone pointing upwards or with the capsule towards the monitors?
 

richard12511

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
2,748
Likes
3,783
hi Richard, apologize but I respectfully disagree...;)
as i said Kii three is using separate woofers to create that active cardioid pattern like w371. while the Finnish implement it with two large speakers -kii does it with 2 woofer in the back, two woofer on the side and one midrange in front. 3 sound source spaced longitudinally in the space with corresponding delay at different frequency band. it's complex and the results are a bass (relatively) free from null and peak, the best you can achieve in room, ever since it control horizontal and with BXT vertical dispersion (6 woofer on the back, 6 on the side).
hope this help to clarify my statement that the bass of kii three + BXT is unmatched by any (as far as I know) other assembly.
I see from your posts and comment we are both striving for the most important point left undealt in the audio reproduction at home, the room interaction. defintly DSP and room treatment are the way to go. it's much more important that 20db on DAC THD... we'll see who'll be first, Amir or Erin in Kii three measurements to compare to D&D.:)
my Best
I think you still might be missing the point, a bit. I'm aware that the Kii has a cardioid dispersion down to 50Hz, and that it's achieved slightly differently (or even more effectively, as you seem to be suggesting) than it is with the W371. What I am (and what I believe Frank is) is talking about is not the cardioid dispersion pattern, but rather the null cancelling pattern, which as far as I'm aware, the Kii doesn't have. To me, that's the more interesting mode, since (from what I understand) cardioid is pretty useless(at least indoors in a home) below 100Hz.

The cardioid mode seems more useful for live sound on stage playing to a crowd, and in that use case, it may be true that the BXT to 50Hz cardioid implementation (due to the multiple woofer line source array and mid/back or whatever) may well be more effective than the W371a to 50Hz cardioid implementation. The Kii seems to only do the cardioid mode, though.

Now, back to the null cancelling mode:
Personally, I'm still a bit skeptical that the W371 woofers are far enough apart in space to truly be able to alter peaks/nulls effectively. This skepticism comes from my experience with manually moving multiple subs around the room to steer nulls. Also, the wavelengths here are longer than the W371A is tall. I'm still relatively uninformed, though, so maybe I don't fully understand how it works. I certainly don't have the ability to only send certain frequencies to certain woofers, like the W371 does.
 
Last edited:

Purité Audio

Major Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
4,492
Likes
3,091
Location
London
I think the W371s might be capable of cancelling the cancellation caused by pulling them further than the recommended 60cm from the front wall.
The kiis with bxt have a much flatter response here than with them switched off, both in terms of the fundamental axial modes and the depth of cancellations.
Keith
 

richard12511

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
2,748
Likes
3,783
The kiis with bxt have a much flatter response here than with them switched off, both in terms of the fundamental axial modes and the depth of cancellations.
Keith
Can you leave the BXT module on, but turn the cardioid dispersion off and re-measure? I'd be curious what the differences would be with it just shooting omni bass from all of its woofers. To get a complete picture, though, we'd likely need to do the same in multiple rooms. From what I understand, whether or not cardioid sub 100Hz improves or worsens the response is mostly just luck? In a different room, the Grimm LS1be might be smoother with its omni bass.
 

Lorenzo74

Active Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2019
Messages
290
Likes
223
Location
Italy, Rome
I think you still might be missing the point, a bit. I'm aware that the Kii has a cardioid dispersion down to 50Hz, and that it's achieved slightly differently (or even more effectively, as you seem to be suggesting) than it is with the W371. What I am (and what I believe Frank is) is talking about is not the cardioid dispersion pattern, but rather the null cancelling pattern, which as far as I'm aware, the Kii doesn't have. To me, that's the more interesting mode, since (from what I understand) cardioid is pretty useless(at least indoors in a home) below 100Hz.

The cardioid mode seems more useful for live sound on stage playing to a crowd, and in that use case, it may be true that the BXT to 50Hz cardioid implementation (due to the multiple woofer line source array and mid/back or whatever) may well be more effective than the W371a to 50Hz cardioid implementation. The Kii seems to only do the cardioid mode, though.

Now, back to the null cancelling mode:
Personally, I'm still a bit skeptical that the W371 woofers are far enough apart in space to truly be able to alter peaks/nulls effectively. This skepticism comes from my experience with manually moving multiple subs around the room to steer nulls. Also, the wavelengths here are longer than the W371A is tall. I'm still relatively uninformed, though, so maybe I don't fully understand how it works. I certainly don't have the ability to only send certain frequencies to certain woofers, like the W371 does.
Agree with You and with Frank.
the genelec has this (room complementary optimizer) feature does not provided by kii.
however I’m strong believer bruno putzeys did the most was possible out if his design and I’m convinved a pair of kii+BXT can mach in “objective” measurement the best challenger overall. Especially considering the commitment and capabilities of its inventor...
 

direstraitsfan98

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
782
Likes
1,061
Should one get the complete Kii 3 system; Kii control and BXT Bass modules, or perhaps the Dutch and Dutch 8C plus some subwoofers? $44,000 for the Kii 3, and $12,000 for the D&D 8C. Which would leave you with $32,000 in your pocket to spend on half a dozen subwoofers of your choosing. Thoughts?

Personally if I went the latter I think I’d grab a couple of JLA Gotham subs. Dallasjustice uses them to great effect.
 

richard12511

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
2,748
Likes
3,783
Should one get the complete Kii 3 system; Kii control and BXT Bass modules, or perhaps the Dutch and Dutch 8C plus some subwoofers? $44,000 for the Kii 3, and $12,000 for the D&D 8C. Which would leave you with $32,000 in your pocket to spend on half a dozen subwoofers of your choosing. Thoughts?

Personally if I went the latter I think I’d grab a couple of JLA Gotham subs. Dallasjustice uses them to great effect.
I'd probably get 8 JTR Captivator 4000ULFs, or 8 Captivator RS2s. Just gotta find room. With that many bass sources, and that much headroom, you can basically EQ any steady state response you want down to 5Hz :cool:.
 

direstraitsfan98

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
782
Likes
1,061
I'd probably get 8 JTR Captivator 4000ULFs, or 8 Captivator RS2s. Just gotta find room. With that many bass sources, and that much headroom, you can basically EQ any steady state response you want down to 5Hz :cool:.
I’m sure they’d out perform a pair of JL Gotham G213V2 (~$26K/pair) damned if they don’t look as sexy as the JLA. And I was actually mildly joking when I introduced this thought exercise but it’s making me realize how much more cost effective it would be to go with your own subwoofers and a pair of D&D 8C as opposed to going all in with the Kii ecosystem.
Does the 8C offer any sort of connectivity options via its software or hardware for integration into a multi subwoofer system?
 

Emlin

Active Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2018
Messages
219
Likes
347
I’m sure they’d out perform a pair of JL Gotham G213V2 (~$26K/pair) damned if they don’t look as sexy as the JLA. And I was actually mildly joking when I introduced this thought exercise but it’s making me realize how much more cost effective it would be to go with your own subwoofers and a pair of D&D 8C as opposed to going all in with the Kii ecosystem.
Does the 8C offer any sort of connectivity options via its software or hardware for integration into a multi subwoofer system?
The 8c has balanced full range output, but nothing beyond that.
 

stevenswall

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
583
Likes
381
Location
Orem, UT
I've not seen it implemented, but if you have $32k to spare, why go for all the boxes everywhere?

At that point one could likely install 4-9 woofers on the front wall, and 4-9 woofers on the back wall, and time delay and polarity reverse the back wall ones to cancel the pulse from the front wall.
 

Lorenzo74

Active Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2019
Messages
290
Likes
223
Location
Italy, Rome
I've not seen it implemented, but if you have $32k to spare, why go for all the boxes everywhere?

At that point one could likely install 4-9 woofers on the front wall, and 4-9 woofers on the back wall, and time delay and polarity reverse the back wall ones to cancel the pulse from the front wall.
Dirac Unison
 

Lorenzo74

Active Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2019
Messages
290
Likes
223
Location
Italy, Rome
I’m sure they’d out perform a pair of JL Gotham G213V2 (~$26K/pair) damned if they don’t look as sexy as the JLA. And I was actually mildly joking when I introduced this thought exercise but it’s making me realize how much more cost effective it would be to go with your own subwoofers and a pair of D&D 8C as opposed to going all in with the Kii ecosystem.
Does the 8C offer any sort of connectivity options via its software or hardware for integration into a multi subwoofer system?
Nothing can beat Kii+BXT in bass domain.
you’ll never achieve a room “friendly” interaction following what you suggest unless you have dedicated DSP system such as Dirac Live Bass Management.
kii three+ BXT not only allow insane SPL below 100Hz without distortion but also controlled mid bass and mid in the vertical space since act as a vertical array.
check B. Putzeys interview by J. Darko(posted in asr as well)
Hope this help if have 30k€ To invest
Best
 

stevenswall

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
583
Likes
381
Location
Orem, UT
Useless for this. You'd have to buy that entire DIRAC company and MiniDSP to get a product out that can actually be used. Or pretend you're a multi billion dollar auto company and reverse engineer it and manufacture a hardware box in China so you can't be shut down easily.
 

Karu

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 23, 2019
Messages
98
Likes
85
I am moving and planning to replace my second system, going to the 8351b’s. I am trying to keep the footprint small and want to go with miniDSP SHD Studio as an all in one box for room correction and vol. control, but would miss the opportunity to integrate my two subs. Is there an alternative I am missing instead of going to the “full” SHD?
 

Lorenzo74

Active Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2019
Messages
290
Likes
223
Location
Italy, Rome
I am moving and planning to replace my second system, going to the 8351b’s. I am trying to keep the footprint small and want to go with miniDSP SHD Studio as an all in one box for room correction and vol. control, but would miss the opportunity to integrate my two subs. Is there an alternative I am missing instead of going to the “full” SHD?
99$ monoprice dac and connect two subs
 

phoenixdogfan

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
1,164
Likes
1,035
Useless for this. You'd have to buy that entire DIRAC company and MiniDSP to get a product out that can actually be used. Or pretend you're a multi billion dollar auto company and reverse engineer it and manufacture a hardware box in China so you can't be shut down easily.
Dirac deserves the ass whipping for how they've handled to roll outs of things like Unison and DL Bass Management!
 
Top Bottom