SMSL D400EX DAC Review

[truwarrior22]

Is there any benefit connecting an external DAC to an AVR (SR8015) analog input and using pure direct for stereo?

 

[PoorishDecision]

Lol more filter talk, highly doubt anyone could hear the difference blind honestly. This is a really nice dac, I'm highly curious to see how the ess model stacks up thanks for the review.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

Your points are well taken, I just try and keep the made in China sold direct on line to the free world comments out of the mix, as one tends to start a political fire with those, and I have been roasted on other forums for my somewhat free-world leaning POV.

Of course many top brands, including audio, have taken production to China in order to financially compete and survive, though they are based in, have employees in, and design their products in the U.S. or Europe. Many companies examine, "borrow" or emulate to a degree other's technology, much of which is quite legal, and it is well known that some manufacturers, particularly in China (not just audio) clearly violate or work without concern for intellectual property rights, which is illegal and repugnant, but most difficult to legally defend against.

As to Topping, from my study of them, which is not superficial, it is clear from their and others' information, data and websites that they possess very high-quality engineering talent and utilize the best measuring and evaluation equipment in their production. I do not see them infringing on others IP. Their internal skill sets enable them to create state of the art products. They are a legitimate Chinese-based and run company that fully utilizes and leverages its location, costs therein and economies of scale to produce very high performing products and sell them at a significant discount vs. free-world products.

It seems to me that Schiit Audio is the only free-world company that can even come close to competing in cost and performance and produce in the U.S.

Such is the world we live in and the consumer must make his or her own choices on whose products they wish to purchase and why. Most make that choice with their wallet.

My statement reads stronger than I intended. Humans "borrowed" the fire and a lot of the essential discoveries way before copyright was intended. Most definitely didn't mean to sound righteous. My comment was comparing costs. If I left out the borrow part it still should have been enough to compare costs.
I still stand by my remarks that Topping/SMSL/miniDSP spend close to nothing on customer support compared to RME/Benchmark/Motu/etc

 

[Ajax]

Can anyone provide a good reason why you would pay nearly 3 times more for this DAC over say the Topping E70 that Amir recently reviewed. Both are balanced and basically measure the same.

Topping E70 Stereo DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping E70 stereo USB DAC with Bluetooth. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $349. I really like the new white multi-segment display with its large volume level indicator. Response is excellent as you rotate the encoder. A select...

www.audiosciencereview.com

We often see DACs from Western companies, such as DCS and Chord, ridiculed for their excessive expense, however, here we have two Chinese manufacturers with a large "relative" price difference for what I can see are virtually the same item.

Serious question "what am I missing?"

 

[PeteL]

Can anyone provide a good reason why you would pay nearly 3 times more for this DAC over say the Topping E70 that Amir recently reviewed. Both are balanced and basically measure the same.

Topping E70 Stereo DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping E70 stereo USB DAC with Bluetooth. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $349. I really like the new white multi-segment display with its large volume level indicator. Response is excellent as you rotate the encoder. A select...

www.audiosciencereview.com

We often see DACs from Western companies, such as DCS and Chord, ridiculed for their excessive expense, however, here we have two Chinese manufacturers with a large "relative" price difference for what I can see are virtually the same item.

Serious question "what am I missing?"

Some people will pay more for thing like the dac chip used, linear power supply, display, components, IIS, not necessarily because it has a real measurable benefit. Just to have the latest and greatest. Topping's Flagship is like 900$, the D90SE MQA. It is I believe close to a couple years old or so, so the small pricing difference may be just inflation and this one have the very latest most expensive chip. Those two companies competes really closely in pricing.

 

[dtaylo1066]

My statement reads stronger than I intended. Humans "borrowed" the fire and a lot of the essential discoveries way before copyright was intended. Most definitely didn't mean to sound righteous. My comment was comparing costs. If I left out the borrow part it still should have been enough to compare costs.
I still stand by my remarks that Topping/SMSL/miniDSP spend close to nothing on customer support compared to RME/Benchmark/Motu/etc

I did not take your statement as over the top, but as more on customer service, wages, etc, which are all true.

 

[dtaylo1066]

Can anyone provide a good reason why you would pay nearly 3 times more for this DAC over say the Topping E70 that Amir recently reviewed. Both are balanced and basically measure the same.

Topping E70 Stereo DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping E70 stereo USB DAC with Bluetooth. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $349. I really like the new white multi-segment display with its large volume level indicator. Response is excellent as you rotate the encoder. A select...

www.audiosciencereview.com

We often see DACs from Western companies, such as DCS and Chord, ridiculed for their excessive expense, however, here we have two Chinese manufacturers with a large "relative" price difference for what I can see are virtually the same item.

Serious question "what am I missing?"

Objectively, you are missing nothing. If one believes 100% is the objectivist/measurements view of audio, particularly DACs, which is foundational to the existence of this forum, there is no particularly good or logical reason to make that purchase. But in reality, few of us are 100% committed, and some levels of badge value and subjectivity creep into the human mind. And, of course, the majority of people who buy that DAC are probably not reading this forum.

There is also the brand, pride and equivalency factor: "I have $3,000 speakers, a $2,500 amplifier, a $1,500 streamer or CD player, Roon and Tidal subscriptions, and I am not going to run all that through a $399 DAC."

Personally, if I were going to dump a grand or more on a DAC, which at the moment I am not, I would go with the RMI. For less than 1K I would go with the MiniDSP Flex given all the features and decent performance. Below $500, there are a sea of great DACs out there that are hard to go wrong with.

DACs are truly a consumer category where performance improves and price drops on a regular basis. A boon for consumers.

 

[HiFindingnemo]

Objectively, you are missing nothing. If one believes 100% is the objectivist/measurements view of audio, particularly DACs, which is foundational to the existence of this forum, there is no particularly good or logical reason to make that purchase. But in reality, few of us are 100% committed, and some levels of badge value and subjectivity creep into the human mind. And, of course, the majority of people who buy that DAC are probably not reading this forum.

There is also the brand, pride and equivalency factor: "I have $3,000 speakers, a $2,500 amplifier, a $1,500 streamer or CD player, Roon and Tidal subscriptions, and I am not going to run all that through a $399 DAC."

Personally, if I were going to dump a grand or more on a DAC, which at the moment I am not, I would go with the RMI. For less than 1K I would go with the MiniDSP Flex given all the features and decent performance. Below $500, there are a sea of great DACs out there that are hard to go wrong with.

DACs are truly a consumer category where performance improves and price drops on a regular basis. A boon for consumers.

I don't fully understand the value proposition of the RME ADI-2 and all the hype it gets here. Its DAC stage is equivalent to like a $100-$200 standalone dac (with no bluetooth). The headamp stage is nice, but doesn't have 4-pin balanced and is underpowered for the most demanding headphones. You could buy standalone dac & amp with better specs and more features for like $500. I guess the EQ and perceived quality is the real selling point? I'm not trying to crap on the RME ADI-2 (I've heard great things about them), but I have had a bit of a hard time understanding all the hype for $1300.

 

[Purité Audio]

I have never had an RME fail,
Keith

 

[Snoopy]

I don't fully understand the value proposition of the RME ADI-2 and all the hype it gets here. It's DAC stage is equivalent to like a $100-$200 standalone dac (with no bluetooth). The headamp stage is nice, but doesn't have 4-pin balanced and is underpowered for the most demanding headphones. You could buy standalone dac & amp with better specs and more features for like $500. I guess the EQ and perceived quality is the real selling point? I'm not trying to crap on the RME ADI-2 (I've heard great things about them), but I have had a bit of a hard time understanding all the hype for $1300.

The EQ stuff you can easily do through software.

 

[Trell]

I don't fully understand the value proposition of the RME ADI-2 and all the hype it gets here. It's DAC stage is equivalent to like a $100-$200 standalone dac (with no bluetooth). The headamp stage is nice, but doesn't have 4-pin balanced and is underpowered for the most demanding headphones. You could buy standalone dac & amp with better specs and more features for like $500. I guess the EQ and perceived quality is the real selling point? I'm not trying to crap on the RME ADI-2 (I've heard great things about them), but I have had a bit of a hard time understanding all the hype for $1300.

The RME ADI-2 DAC has onboard DSP with features like PEQ, dynamic loudness and tone controls, and many more. This makes it quite unique.

I prefer to not have to use my PC for this on my desktop, but others even use SPDIF or TOSLINK with no PC/Mac connected.

Then there is the RME proven track record of very long support, excellent documentation, and for my living in EU it’s made in Germany.

 

[Trell]

The EQ stuff you can easily do through software.

Depends, really, how easy it is on your use case. It’s also a preference to not have the hassle with software running on a PC/Mac for this.

 

[dtaylo1066]

I don't fully understand the value proposition of the RME ADI-2 and all the hype it gets here. It's DAC stage is equivalent to like a $100-$200 standalone dac (with no bluetooth). The headamp stage is nice, but doesn't have 4-pin balanced and is underpowered for the most demanding headphones. You could buy standalone dac & amp with better specs and more features for like $500. I guess the EQ and perceived quality is the real selling point? I'm not trying to crap on the RME ADI-2 (I've heard great things about them), but I have had a bit of a hard time understanding all the hype for $1300.

Quality, features, dependability.

 

[Jimster480]

The EQ stuff you can easily do through software.

Very true.

Can anyone provide a good reason why you would pay nearly 3 times more for this DAC over say the Topping E70 that Amir recently reviewed. Both are balanced and basically measure the same.

Topping E70 Stereo DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping E70 stereo USB DAC with Bluetooth. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $349. I really like the new white multi-segment display with its large volume level indicator. Response is excellent as you rotate the encoder. A select...

www.audiosciencereview.com

We often see DACs from Western companies, such as DCS and Chord, ridiculed for their excessive expense, however, here we have two Chinese manufacturers with a large "relative" price difference for what I can see are virtually the same item.

Serious question "what am I missing?"

I understand this question completely.... these prices have gotten out of control but they aren't for people like us. They are for people who want to spend alot of money; those people do actually exist. They don't want cheaper products because they believe more money = more better. When it comes to audio quality; they aren't getting anything.
I do kind of like the design of this unit overall and it "looks premium" but I definitely wouldn't buy it for this price or any price close to it. Just like how I skipped the new DX7 being $700 when my original DX7 was $250.... bought a lightly used D70S for $280 instead as my "upgrade" after many years of listening.
I actually also bought an SU-8S that I don't really need now and might just resell.... I don't understand this hype of buying expensive stuff left and right when the cheap stuff is more than enough. I can understand not owning the cheapest stuff though because good POTs or things like linear volume and screens to manage volume and bitrate are "nice to haves" for people who really use these products every day the way that my self and others do.

 

[Roland68]

I don't fully understand the value proposition of the RME ADI-2 and all the hype it gets here. It's DAC stage is equivalent to like a $100-$200 standalone dac (with no bluetooth). The headamp stage is nice, but doesn't have 4-pin balanced and is underpowered for the most demanding headphones. You could buy standalone dac & amp with better specs and more features for like $500. I guess the EQ and perceived quality is the real selling point? I'm not trying to crap on the RME ADI-2 (I've heard great things about them), but I have had a bit of a hard time understanding all the hype for $1300.

The RME ADI-2 DAC FS is a professional work tool and the "only" DAC version of the RME ADI-2 Pro. This is not about simple hobby devices, but professional studio technology.
The requirements are higher in all respects and of course more expensive. This includes development, tests, QM, certified original components, reliability, durability/lifespan, long-term stability, repair options, support, etc.
If that is not important to you, you will certainly be happy with a much cheaper device.

 

[Jimster480]

The RME ADI-2 DAC FS is a professional work tool and the "only" DAC version of the RME ADI-2 Pro. This is not about simple hobby devices, but professional studio technology.
The requirements are higher in all respects and of course more expensive. This includes development, tests, QM, certified original components, reliability, durability/lifespan, long-term stability, repair options, support, etc.
If that is not important to you, you will certainly be happy with a much cheaper device.

Meh the idea of "reliability" is mostly fake. They all use the same chips from the same mfg... No difference. Maybe a few capacitor selection but I have cheap Chinese devices that are 10+y old and still work the same as new....
My D30 runs 24/7 on my TV and still works fine....
I just replaced a 1A USB charger last month that died after 12 years of continuous use. Cost me $5 in 2009/2010...

 

[Trell]

The RME ADI-2 DAC FS is a professional work tool and the "only" DAC version of the RME ADI-2 Pro. This is not about simple hobby devices, but professional studio technology.
The requirements are higher in all respects and of course more expensive. This includes development, tests, QM, certified original components, reliability, durability/lifespan, long-term stability, repair options, support, etc.
If that is not important to you, you will certainly be happy with a much cheaper device.

This is how RME shows the ADI-2 Pro on their home page. It was first intended for the mastering market but it had such an unexpected success among the HiFi crowd with it that they made the ADI-2 DAC which is also a great success.

 

[HiFindingnemo]

The onboard analyzer visualization software is awesome. I want it for that alone

 

[Roland68]

Meh the idea of "reliability" is mostly fake. They all use the same chips from the same mfg... No difference. Maybe a few capacitor selection but I have cheap Chinese devices that are 10+y old and still work the same as new....
My D30 runs 24/7 on my TV and still works fine....
I just replaced a 1A USB charger last month that died after 12 years of continuous use. Cost me $5 in 2009/2010...

As I said, these are devices from the professional environment.
If your D30 breaks, what bad happens? Nothing, you turn on the sound on the TV and buy another DAC.
But if it's a work tool, every hour of downtime that you can't charge your customers costs you $80-$150.

I'm not saying that "cheap" devices can't live that long, I have some that are over 10 years old myself.
But we see here and in other forums devices that fail early or are not fully developed. And that's not just the case in audio.

And your example with the same chips is good. Take a look at the lifespan of mainboards with the same chipsets and processors from the consumer sector and high-end manufacturers such as Super Micro. Apparently it depends on experience, development quality, component quality and extensive tests, otherwise such devices would not run under high load for 5-10 years in 24/7 operation.

But it doesn't matter to me, I have 30 years of experience in highly available IT hardware and industrial devices and their development and I know how complex and expensive that is.
That's why I only expect a service life that corresponds to the price of inexpensive devices, if it lasts longer, great.

 

[Jimster480]

As I said, these are devices from the professional environment.
If your D30 breaks, what bad happens? Nothing, you turn on the sound on the TV and buy another DAC.
But if it's a work tool, every hour of downtime that you can't charge your customers costs you $80-$150.

I'm not saying that "cheap" devices can't live that long, I have some that are over 10 years old myself.
But we see here and in other forums devices that fail early or are not fully developed. And that's not just the case in audio.

And your example with the same chips is good. Take a look at the lifespan of mainboards with the same chipsets and processors from the consumer sector and high-end manufacturers such as Super Micro. Apparently it depends on experience, development quality, component quality and extensive tests, otherwise such devices would not run under high load for 5-10 years in 24/7 operation.

But it doesn't matter to me, I have 30 years of experience in highly available IT hardware and industrial devices and their development and I know how complex and expensive that is.
That's why I only expect a service life that corresponds to the price of inexpensive devices, if it lasts longer, great.

yes it depends on things such as mainboard designs specifically for servers. But for example I have used desktop parts for servers for the last 10 years and so far none of my servers have failed :knock on wood:
In fact my HPE Enterprise DL325 EPYC 7402P server had ram failures in the first months of operation. So it really is like the luck of the draw today tbh.... there are enough enterprise hard drives and SSDs that fail all the time just like the consumer stuff.... and lots of it is once again using the exact same chips. With motherboards it is usually the layout of the capacitors and stuff for "over top airflow" cooling since there is no place for high-Z coolers and the such.