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SACD Player + miniDSP Flex

That is a great summary. I will have do more direct comparisons of the SACD and CD layers on the same discs to convince myself that there is no sound difference. I have already ordered some of those Japanese SHMs with flat transfers. You convinced me to pull the trigger on Who's Next.
 
You are OK outputting 48 kHz. One of the benefits of SACD was that you could decimate to integer PCM format. Sony’s noise shaping for their DSD to PCM is very good.

I agree that the mastering is more important than the format, but DACs may not treat DSD and PCM the same. I was able to ABX the CD and DSD layers which were identical masters, theoretically. The difference was small.

I have some non-hybrid SACDs. Your best bet would be to get an old Blu-Ray player that allows you to rip SACDs to DSF files. Then you can just use the Bluesound Node Icon for high res Dirac if you really wanted to have high res room correction
 
I agree that the mastering is more important than the format, but DACs may not treat DSD and PCM the same. I was able to ABX the CD and DSD layers which were identical masters, theoretically. The difference was small.

I have some non-hybrid SACDs. Your best bet would be to get an old Blu-Ray player that allows you to rip SACDs to DSF files. Then you can just use the Bluesound Node Icon for high res Dirac if you really wanted to have high res room correction
Yes, there are more than the digital format itself that could explain an eventual audible difference, hence the precautions that have to be taken in order to assess two disc formats in order to be sure that only one thing is being compared at a time and not that two or more different things are being compared at the same time (typically a slight difference in nominal level introduced, in that specific case, by the D/A converter chip due to different conversion processes or the analogue circuit of the player).

As far as ripping is concerned, isn't the Sony UBP-X800M2 allowing that ? I thought older Sony Blue-Ray players allowed ripping SA-CDs.
 
1. You don't need SACD for sound quality reasons. DSD64 - the format of SACDs - has frequency extension and noise performance that make it roughly equivalent to a hypothetical 56kHz, 20-bit PCM. Of course such a PCM format doesn't exist. But SACD's noise floor is about 20 bits, and its noise-shaping usually results in a huge amount of ultrasonic noise starting around 28-30kHz (a PCM sample rate that could go up to 28kHz would be a 56k sample-rate system). So don't bother with an HDMI de-embedder or anything like that. SACD does not sound different than PCM, and 24/48 PCM is more or less identical in capability to SACD - slightly better noise floor, slightly less ultrasonic frequency capability. But it doesn't matter, because we can't hear the difference between 20 vs 24 bits, and usable frequency response up to 24kHz vs 28kHz doesn't matter since we can't hear past 20kHz anyway.

2. You "need" SACD only for a relatively small number of specific masterings. There are a few masterings of some albums that have only appeared in SACD format. For example, the two 2003 Talk Talk SACDs used a then-new mastering on their SACD layers, but for the CD layers they re-used an existing 1997 mastering which IMHO doesn't sound as good. (Of course, each of those SACDs will cost you $100 or more on the used market, so why bother.) There's also a series of Universal Japan SACDs from 2009-2011 that are reputedly flat transfers from the original master tapes. These are single-layer discs - they don't have a CD layer at all. But many of these flat-transfer masterings have subsequently been released on hybrid SACDs and/or on plain old CDs - not to mention that not all of these particular masterings are the best-sounding ones out there anyway. I do find the 2010 Universal Japan SACD of the Who's Who's Next to be the best-sounding version I've heard, and I don't think it's ever been reissued on a hybrid SACD or a CD. But there are multiple other very good versions available on CD.

3. The UBP-X800M2 is an excellent disc player for other reasons. In addition to its ability to play Blu-Ray and DVD-A discs, it's also the most mechanically quiet player I've ever heard - or, I should say, not heard. :) I don't know what your preferences are or what the ambient room noise in your listening space is, but the X800 does not emit any of the little beeps or chirps that most CD and DVD/Blu-Ray players do periodically when playing discs, especially when moving from one track to the next. The X800 also shows nothing on its display when playing discs, because it was designed not to be distracting when hooked up as part of a home theater system. I personally love this even though it's in my audio-only setup, because I don't like the distraction of a bright LED display when I'm listening to music in a dimmed or darkened room.

Given that the 800M2 costs only about $250, and part of that cost is the heavy metal chassis that is responsible for the fact that none of the mechanical spinning and track-seeking noises escape the player where you might hear them, I view it as an excellent value, and so I would suggest you consider keeping it even if you go for a simple digital TOSLINK connection to the MiniDSP, which would prevent you from being able to play SACD layers through your system.

So my recommendation is to keep the 800M2, connect it directly to the Flex with a single TOSLINK or other digital cable, and don't worry about anything else.
Point 2 in the above quoted tmtomh's message is the most important, to my mind. The most important decision factor when dealing with SA-CD is access to contents. Especially multichannel contents, because SA-CD is multichannel capable.

As far as trying to draw an equivalence between DSD to PCM (point 1 of the above quoted message), I for my part would be more cautious. A one bit sigma-delta modulated bit-stream has not an absolute specification in noise or signal bandwidth. The actual performances heavily depend upon the design of the modulator that produces a particular bit-stream. Different optimization strategies can be followed by designers, for instance by trading higher accuracy in the (audio) pass-band at the price of a steeper rise of the shaped quantization noise in the ultrasonic or the reverse, less accuracy in the pass-band but a less steep rise in the shaped quantization noise above 20 kHz (or so).

Back in 2014, the Italian magazine Audioreview published the first of a series of two interesting articles where digital analysis of the bit-streams produced by most of the then available modulators used in the music industry were published. Among other interesting results, this analysis showed that the equivalent number of bits (ENOB) in a 400 Hz to 20 kHz bandwidth vary wildly from modulator to modulator, almost in a 12 bits wide span. The ENOB of the newer modulators at the time of this article, those from the Weiss Saracon software suite, all already exceed 21 bits. The best of the three Weiss modulators by this metric, the 10th order modulator (the one recommended for classical music release in the Saracon software user manual), almost reaches an ENOB of 25 bits.

Since 2014, newer modulators designs have been put on the market by other parties. For instance, the PCM-DSD_Converter software, with published digital analysis comparisons with other modulator designs or digital formats that show that each modulator have its own particular performance which is different than the others : https://pcmdsd.com/Software/PCM-DSD_Converter_en.html

But these purely technical points are academic, to be honest. The most important points are that (1st) DSD (even at 64x) has never been an intangible system but on the contrary is likely to evolve and progress, like many other systems, and (2nd) that the analogue noise floor of any replay chain will likely be the limiting factor, whatever digital format is used as input.
 
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One of the benefits of SACD was that you could decimate to integer PCM format
Why need SACD when any material delivered in PCM is in integer (opposed to FP) format?
 
Why need SACD when any material delivered in PCM is in integer (opposed to FP) format?

What I mean is that if you recorded in 48 kHz and needed to decimate to 44.1, it’s not a trivial downconversion in the way that 2.8224MHz DSD is.

2822400/44.1=64000
2822400/48=58800

48/44.1=1.0884

To be clear, no one needs DSD or SACD, but if you have music on SACD, you sort of need a way to play that music back…
 
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What I mean is that if you recorded in 48 kHz and needed to decimate to 44.1, it’s not a trivial downconversion in the way that 2.8224MHz DSD is.

2822400/44.1=64000
2822400/48=58800

48/44.1=1.0884

To be clear, no one needs DSD or SACD, but if you have music on SACD, you sort of need a way to play that music back…

I understand what you are saying, but decimation/sample rate conversion between 44.1 and 48k sample rates (and their respective multiples) is, as a practical matter, trivial with today’s hardware and software. There is the issue of increased intersample overs, yes, but otherwise it’s routine at this point.
 
Correct - basically it's the Sony Blu-Ray players released in 2012 (and possibly 2011, I can't recall). That's it. Good new is they're dirt-cheap on the used market.
Then there were early PS3s IIRC as well as early Oppos....
 
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Then there were early PS3s IIRC as well as early Oppos....

Yes, sorry - I meant the 2012 models are the only Sony Blu-Ray players that can rip SACDs. But yes, you are of course correct about the early PS3's and the pre-200 series Oppos.
 
I have the Sony and I like it a lot . . .
Tillman
I have the ESns975v for cd transport & also like it a lot but it has become a little slower to load these days :=0
Sounds great
 
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