SACD Player + miniDSP Flex

[Scytales]

I currently don't have an SACD player or any SACDs, but I just ordered the Sony UBP-X800M2 Blu-Ray player. However, I can send it back unopened if I get negative feedback on it here.

Right now I have a miniDSP Flex with balanced analog inputs, for a phono amp / turntable, and the usual three digital inputs. I have a computer plugged into the USB port. I use Dirac Live for room correction. My recollection is that the miniDSP does the room correction internally using PCM at 48 kHZ.

The obvious approach is to output the SACD from the Sony UBP-X800M2 as PCM on SPDIF. But this sounds like I might be downconverting the SACD / DSD to CD quality. Would it be best to limit the Sony UBP-X800M2 output to 48 kHZ, to match how the miniDSP Flex operates internally?

Also, if I am exporting PCM on SPDIF from the UBP-X800M2, should I just play the CD layer on a hybrid SACD and skip the entire SACD / DSD thing?

Is there a better option to get closer to DSD / SACD quality? Either a better SACD player or a better way to configure the output / input relationship between the Sony UBP-X800M2 and the miniDSP Flex?

Personnaly, I wouldn't be bothered by the fact that a one-bit sigma-delta modulated bitstream (which DSD is) is decimated into PCM. It is a completely banal technical process, used for decades to produce PCM.

To my mind, what you should be concerned about is the following: would any sound from an SA-CD be put out by the Sony player through Toslink at all? Reason is that, unless Sony has changed its policy before releasing the UBP-X800M2, the content of SA-CD discs can normally not be put out through S/PDIF or Toslink for copy protection reasons. That means that, with your current hardware set-up, you would only be able to send through Toslink the content of the CD layer of hybrid CD/SA-CD discs, but not the content of the high density (HD) layer or of any non-hybrid SA-CD disc. So, buying an UBP-X800M2 in the hope that you will be able to play the HD layer of SA-CD discs could end in disappointment.

But that's not necessarily a reason to give up on the UBP-X800M2. This device is able to play not only SA-CDs (only through its HDMI output, though), but also CDs, Blue-Ray discs, DVDs and even DVD-As. Disc spinning devices that can play the latter type of disc have become extremely rare. Thus, you would be able to play whatever disc format you own or plan to buy.

If your goal is to play (or rip) discs, whatever type they are, not necessarily SA-CD, the Sony appears to be a perfectly valid choice.

 

[JRR]

Focusing on SACDs from Mobile Fidelity and Analogue Productions, do you think that the mastering of the PCM/CD layer is often different from the mastering of the DSD/SACD layer?

It looks like the multichannel layer of hybrid multichannel SACDs is not relevant for me with my current stereo setup.

Probably not

 

[Scytales]

2: sacd only discs have one layer, Hybrid stereo discs have two, hybrid multichannel discs have three layers. No downmixing needed. In a multidisc player like the sony x800 You can typically set the order/hirearchy of what it plays.

Just to correct a factual error: an SA-CD can only have two layers, one CD layer and one high density layer or two high density layers.

The high density layer(s) is/are formatted with two distinct areas : an area that contains a two tracks stereo program and another area that can optionally provide a multichannel program with up to six channels.

 

[Scytales]

To my mind, what you should be concerned about is the following: whould any sound from an SA-CD be put out by the Sony player though Toslink at all? Reason is that, unless Sony has changed its policy before releasing the UBP-X800M2, the content of SA-CD discs can normally not be put out through S/PDIF or Toslink for copy protection reasons. That means that, with your current hardware set-up, you would only be able to send through Toslink the content of the CD layer of hybrid CD/SA-CD discs, but not the content of the high density (HD) layer or of any non-hybrid SA-CD disc. So, buying an UBP-X800M2 in the hope that you will be able to play the HD layer of SA-CD discs could end in disappointment.

OK, perhaps I would have to back that off. I found a thread on another forum on which two users of UBP-X800, the predecessor to the UBP-X800M2, were able to send PCM through S/PDIF coaxial output when reading SA-CD, even non-hybrid ones. Perhaps it could be possible that the UBP-X800M2 is able to do the same through Toslink.

 

[kyuu]

To my understanding, there are two reasons to pursue SACD recordings, which are the same reasons as pursuing blu-ray recordings nowadays: 1) multichannel mixes, and 2) superior masterings (e.g. better dynamic range due to not being subject to Loudness Wars compression). That's it. Worrying about DSD vs. PCM, sampling rates, or bit depths is a waste of time as there is no audible benefit to going beyond redbook.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

It looks like the multichannel layer of hybrid multichannel SACDs is not relevant for me with my current stereo setup.

Yes (in case you were not completely certain).

 

[ClearHearing]

OK, perhaps I would have to back that off. I found a thread on another forum on which two users of UBP-X800, the predecessor to the UBP-X800M2, were able to send PCM through S/PDIF coaxial output when reading SA-CD, even non-hybrid ones. Perhaps it could be possible that the UBP-X800M2 is able to do the same through Toslink.

Perhaps it is because Sony is the one who invented SACD and the one making this particular Blu-Ray player? As a minor note, I cancelled the X800M2 and ordered the X700M for an idiosyncratic reason. But thanks for the warning about SACD players in general, which is will taken.

 

[ClearHearing]

To my understanding, there are two reasons to pursue SACD recordings, which are the same reasons as pursuing blu-ray recordings nowadays: 1) multichannel mixes, and 2) superior masterings (e.g. better dynamic range due to not being subject to Loudness Wars compression). That's it. Worrying about DSD vs. PCM, sampling rates, or bit depths is a waste of time as there is no audible benefit to going beyond redbook.

The second point about mastering is my original motivation here, although I know Apple Music does stereo downmixes of Dolby Atmos on the fly, so maybe some SACD player does the same for multichannel mixes, although I really wouldn't know.

 

[JW001]

Your minidsp flex in the speaker stereo system allows you to correct the room acoustics, integrate up to 2 subwoofers and customize the target curve. All this tremendously improves the sound quality, by far exceeding any potential benefit of a high resolution source. I have a similar system in my office, with the Dirac software very effectively toning down a nasty room resonance.

But I also have a separate headphone system with USB sources (foobar2000, Qobuz), Topping D10s DAC and Sennheiser HD600 headphones. All my CDs, SACDs, DVD Audios and Blurays are ripped and shared on my local network by a raspberry pi.

SACD's DSD layer can be ripped to DSF files using one of the older Sony bluray players, for example 2012 S590 (still available as refurbished units on amazon or ebay). DACs such as Topping D10s ($100 on amazon) can process DSD native datastreams. You can learn how to configure a SACD ripping player on hifihaven.org website.

 

[Scytales]

The second point about mastering is my original motivation here, although I know Apple Music does stereo downmixes of Dolby Atmos on the fly, so maybe some SACD player does the same for multichannel mixes, although I really wouldn't know.

Since at least 2004, the specifications of the SA-CD disc (the so-called Scarlet Book) makes it mandatory that there is always a 2 channels stereo program on any SA-CD that contains a multichannel program. That means that any SA-CD always contains a 2 channels program created at the studio, so that it is never necessary to rely on down-mixing the multichannel tracks in 2 channels at home to listen to an SA-CD in stereo.

There are only very rare exceptions, either discs older than 2004 or others that have been able to fly under the radar (perhaps because they already were in the pipeline before the date of enforcement of the last revision of the Scarlet Book).

I know of only one SA-CD player that features the possibility to down-mix the multichannel tracks in stereo: the T+A D10. Perhaps there are others, but it seems to me this feature is extremely rare amongst SA-CD players.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

The second point about mastering is my original motivation here, although I know Apple Music does stereo downmixes of Dolby Atmos on the fly, so maybe some SACD player does the same for multichannel mixes, although I really wouldn't know.

Some can. All the Oppos did, afaik.

 

[ClearHearing]

OK, perhaps I would have to back that off. I found a thread on another forum on which two users of UBP-X800, the predecessor to the UBP-X800M2, were able to send PCM through S/PDIF coaxial output when reading SA-CD, even non-hybrid ones. Perhaps it could be possible that the UBP-X800M2 is able to do the same through Toslink.

It seems the X800M2 can send CD resolution audio from a SACD, but when first released the firmware allowed the player to send 176 kHz PCM output from a SACD over SPDIF. From that thread on the other forum,

This isn't a puzzle. The answer is upthread (somewhere). While the X800 upon release offered high sampling rate coaxial output when an SACD was playing, a subsequent firmware update downgraded that output to CD resolution. They don't want to make it too easy for people to be able to digitally copy SACDs in high resolution.

 

[ClearHearing]

From the other forum, there is discussion of outputting DSD on HDMI and using an "HDMI extractor/HDMI de-embedder" to send the audio to a DAC with a coaxial or optical digital cable. I suppose the output is still DSD, so it wouldn't work with the miniDSP.

 

[Chrispy]

Personally the only reason I use SACD is for the multich layer. Maybe some extra care was made in the recording or mastering for some, but I don't always have a comparable version on hand already to compare to, and when I have, I haven't personally found that 2 ch layer that sounds significantly different from the regular redbook version at least to the point where it's worth any further investigation. YMMV. I use hdmi to export from all the players for multich playback even tho one player can do analog for that, just not worth the extra rca cable.

 

[NTTY]

It's being a long time I had a look so I wouldn't risk a recommendation.
Let's ping @NTTY to it, he's the master of CDPs.

I'd say the Denon DCD-900NE. Very stable digital output because of the very stable clock (0.5ppm), when used as a transport
There would be many other candidates, I guess, but I did not test them.

 

[ClearHearing]

Personally the only reason I use SACD is for the multich layer. Maybe some extra care was made in the recording or mastering for some, but I don't always have a comparable version on hand already to compare to, and when I have, I haven't personally found that 2 ch layer that sounds significantly different from the regular redbook version at least to the point where it's worth any further investigation. YMMV. I use hdmi to export from all the players for multich playback even tho one player can do analog for that, just not worth the extra rca cable.

The Loudness War database is a quick way to see about whether the audio is compressed without needing to watch or read a review of the mastering.

https://dr.loudness-war.info/

 

[Chrispy]

The Loudness War database is a quick way to see about whether the audio is compressed without needing to watch or read a review of the mastering.

https://dr.loudness-war.info/

Compressed compared to what particularly?

 

[ClearHearing]

Compressed compared to what particularly?

Other masterings of the same album if you look at more than one entry.

 

[ClearHearing]

Interestingly, this review by a fellow forum member finds that the CD layer of the 2003/2011 Analogue Productions SACD of Dark Side of the Moon is inferior to the SACD layer on the same disc.

This version lacks dynamics in listening compared to other CDs, the CD layer remains very inferior to the SACD stereo layer.

Pink Floyd – The Dark Side Of The Moon – Review – updated with 50th anniversary Printed Art on Clear vinyl ( Box, CD, DVD, SACD, Cassette, 8 track, Blu-ray, Vinyl, Qobuz Hi-Res – Stereo, quadraphonic, 4.0, 5.1, Dolby Atmos – 31 versions)

“The Dark Side of the Moon” album by Pink Floyd was recorded between 1972 and 1973, mostly at Abbey Road Studios in London, with sound engineer Alan Parsons. The band members used innov…

magicvinyldigital.net

 

[Chrispy]

Other masterings of the same album if you look at more than one entry.

I just meant its mostly comparing vinyl to redbook....at least last I looked and it's been a while. Does it particularly have an SACD section now?