Review and Measurements of Yamaha RX-A1080 AVR

[peng]

How do these measurements relate to the front USB input or using the streamer services like Tidal through ethernet connected internet? I don't know if it's different (should be it seems) than the tested inputs HDMI, Toslink, analog. Thanks

Keep in mind that AVRs (and related integrated 2 channel amp such as Yamaha's A-S801) can have two separate DACs for different inputs. As far as I know, for HDMI inputs, the main and better DACs such as the AK4458 and ES9006 are used.

If you use the front USB input, Ethernet (network streaming), or even optical and coax, then all bets are off and the signal may be routed through the lower grade DACs such as the PCM5100 or the slightly better PCM5101 in the integrated amp such as the Yamaha A-S801. For Z2/Z3, chance is good that the lesser DAC would be used, such as the case for D&M, Onkyo and Yamaha's.

In some cases, such as Yamaha's, even for the main zone, they would use two different ones, the better DAC for the main 7 channels and a slightly lower grade one for the remaining channels. For example: the flag ship RX-A3080 has the Sabre ES9026 Pro for the main 7 channels, and the ES9007S (same as the 9006) for the remaining channels, and then mostly the PCM5101 for the Z2/3. 3 different DACs!! It's all about cost, I assume..

 

[peng]

I think you still aren't thinking about this correctly. Yes every THX certified device will have 0 db Reference at 0 db on their volume. If however you don't have such a device it will be somewhere else. It also would mean their 0 level would give max signal output at 105 db SPL in room.

You are mostly correct, except the "don't have such a device it will..............." part. The fact is, all my Denon/Marantz devices would also produce 85 dB average at volume "0" at the mlp after running auto setup. Good point about the capability of the individual setup as some may not be capable of producing 105 dB peak, but most probably could produce 85 dB average from mlp if the devices are not certified. So if you substitute "will be....." with "may be...." then I am in full agreement.

 

[peng]

That is true. There are threads concerning audibility and I suspect that there is no agreement on the minimum SINAD required for transparency. I think it is reasonable to consider the goal of reproducing the source resolution. For me, CD audio (44.1/16) 96 dB is a reasonable minimum. For HD Audio, greater, perhaps the threshold of human hearing is the goal (though not necessarily required).

Also, there is also no agreement, at least among so called audiophiles, that CD sounds better subjectively, or more transparent (objectively) than the best vinyls. Yet I am sure measurements would show that even the best vinyl/turntable/cartridge combo would most likely have much poorer SINAD than even the NAD T758 V3 recently measured here.

 

[peng]

I still have my Optonica amplifier with three transformers. One for low voltage one dedicated to each power amp. It looks like this:

Maybe I should test it!

Those look like non toroidal transformers, another huge myth on the internet, that toroidal transformer = better sound quality due to lower leakage flux etc. blabalaba..., so it would be great if someone send you one of those expensive Luxman SS amp that doesn't use toroids either and see if it does poorly, or great in SINAD.

 

[peng]

This is not the best snapshot because I was new at REW and did not know the optimal way to set the freq range and save a REW photo but it shows the null I have around 100HZ. This null is there even with only R3's. So I think I'm missing some of what Dirac or Room Perfect would give. So for me it seems either Arcam Dirac or Lyngdorf Room Perfect might be a great next step in amplification. I might be happy with the R3's and good Dirac or Room Perfect amplification.

Next I believe I may be missing a more forward and detailed voicing of the speakers... R3's are excellent and transparent but I've read and heard online that for example Salk Silk's, or maybe even Reference 1's may be more of what I'm looking for. Or maybe try Ascend Sierra 2ex. I've heard they are more forward than R3's. I've heard R3's called "laid back." A tad more forward and detailed presentation, but still musical. Like Genelec but musical. I like detail.

What smoothing did you apply and whats the XO set to? If 1/12 smoothing, and if XO is below 80 Hz, I am sure it will look much better if you set XO to 100 or even 110 Hz (yes I know how low the R3 can go, but....)

For troubleshooting/improving purposes, I would suggest no smoothing, but limit the range to say below 350 Hz, or use 1/48, or even 1/24th smoothing so we can see better the areas to improve.

I have numerous plots for my speakers and they are in two different rooms, Audyssey XT32 is able to do a very good job for the range 10-200 Hz, say within +/- 2.3 to 3 dB with 1/24 smoothing if I exclude one of two huge dips due to room modes. Nothing can do anything about those big dips other than placements, you can try to crawl the two subs side way, back and forth to try minimizing the dips. Dirac Live, or not wouldn't make much different to those, may be a few dB..

 

[RichB]

Also, there is also no agreement, at least among so called audiophiles, that CD sounds better subjectively, or more transparent (objectively) than the best vinyls. Yet I am sure measurements would show that even the best vinyl/turntable/cartridge combo would most likely have much poorer SINAD than even the NAD T758 V3 recently measured here.

Of course, there are some will to spend thousands on turntables to play vinyl on their tube amps and retro JBL 100's.
I had those in college, but moved on.

There is this new thing call steaming that is all the rage. I'd rather spend my money on a CD+ quality service and have almost every album ever recorded at my finger tips. We truly live in a golden age.

Now, if the mastering folks would put away their meat cleavers we'd be all set.

- Rich

 

[peng]

Come the MA., bring your Bryston, and we'll do a blind against the AHB2. I have no idea how this will come out. Too bad you can't find a local AHB2 to try out. I funded a good portion of my upgrades by parting with the gear I was no longer using.

Class A/B with similar protection, power supply design, and construction are going to sound about the same. I did a level matched comparison of the ATI AT4000 and AT522NC and these amps were distinguishable.

- Rich

Too heavy to bring to MA, would be nice if a few people here could get together somewhere near Toronto and do some single blind tests.

 

[amirm]

Keep in mind that AVRs (and related integrated 2 channel amp such as Yamaha's A-S801) can have two separate DACs for different inputs. As far as I know, for HDMI inputs, the main and better DACs such as the AK4458 and ES9006 are used.

WHy would they want to incur higher cost to have different DACs for different inputs? Outputs, sure. But inputs?

 

[peng]

WHy would they want to incur higher cost to have different DACs for different inputs? Outputs, sure. But inputs?

Not really, for example, according to their website:
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/av_receivers_amps/rx-a3080_u/specs.html
ESS 384 kHz / 32-bit SABRE PRO Premier DAC™ ES9026PRO (for main 7 channels) and SABRE ES9007S DAC

For one piece, the 8 channel ES9026Pro costs $27.6. Obviously if Yamaha buys by the thousands, the cost would be much lower accordingly.
the ES9006 cost $9.49, so using the ES9006 for the secondary channels allows them to lower their cost significantly
Based on specs they advertised, the so called ES9007S is the same as the ES9006S, for some reason Yamaha suddenly use the 9007 number instead of 9006 back in 2016/17. I have not seen the service manuals of their prepros, but based on what they do on AVRs, I am quite sure they would also have the cheaper yet PCM5101 for the Z2/3.

Specs different are substantial too:

ES9006S/9007S - DR: 120 dB, THD+N: -102 dB
ES9026Pro - DR: 124 dB, THD+N: -110 dB

By the way, you mentioned the ES9008 earlier, please note that even the Yamaha flagship CX-A5200 prepro doesn't offer the 9008/9018/9028/9038 that have much better DR and THD+N specs. It's all about cost obviously.

That's the flag ship AVR and AVP, if you look at their lower models such as they RX-A1080 you just tested, the Z2/Z3 DAC is the PCM5101, that cost much less than the ES9006S/9007S? for the main zone.

What did you mean by "Outputs, sure.."? There are no direct DACs outputs in any of the Yamaha AVRs/AVPs, their are only HDMI outs, pre outs and speaker outs.

 

[amirm]

Not really, for example, according to their website:
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/av_receivers_amps/rx-a3080_u/specs.html
ESS 384 kHz / 32-bit SABRE PRO Premier DAC™ ES9026PRO (for main 7 channels) and SABRE ES9007S DAC

That says the extra 2 channels use the lower end DAC. It doesn't say that is used for different digital inputs to power the fronts for example.

 

[peng]

That says the extra 2 channels use the lower end DAC. It doesn't say that is used for different digital inputs to power the fronts for example.

That's right, the use of lower grade DAC chip for optical/coax/front USB and/or Ethernet was not clearly shown in the schematics, but the diagrams for the RX-A2060 clearly show the existence of the second DAC chips (2 pieces). I don't know for sure it would be the same for the 1080, but hard to imagine it would be different.

Denon/Marantz also has such a secondary DAC(s), the PCM5100, that has DR: 100 dB, THD+N: -90 dB.
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm5102.pdf

I also can't tell from the info to determine if the front USB and Ethernet streaming signals are routed to the Z2 DAC (PCM5100), that's why in my previous post#181, I said "may" be, and if it is, I wouldn't know why either other than to take a guess. I just wanted to point out the fact that many of those AVRs and even some of their A-S series integrated amps, have two different DAC chips onboard so it is possible that aside from Z2/3, the other DAC chip may be used for other purposes such as the for the front USB, and network streaming signals. The only thing for sure is that the better DAC chip (s) are for the main zone, main channels and HDMI inputs (likely the optical/coax too, but not as sure..) I can still be all wrong though.

 

[scooter]

When you use separate DAC and feed line out analog signals to one of the Yamaha's analog inputs, does it go directly to amplifier sections or through ADC-DAC?

 

[DonH56]

Note if you use room correction (YPAO or any of the sound modes) you must go through the ADC/DAC conversion to get the digital processing.

I do not know if the A1080 has a "pure direct" mode or similar that keeps the path completely analog.

 

[scooter]

No room correction, no YPAO mic, I meant RCA L & R analog inputs at the rear side of AVR, when one selects respective input (for example, Audio 1) and activates PURE DIRECT. If it still goes ADC/DAC way than it's really shame...

 

[DonH56]

The path from mic to CD is not exactly "pure direct"... And a number of tests have shown any decent ADC/DAC conversion is audibly transparent.

 

[peng]

No room correction, no YPAO mic, I meant RCA L & R analog inputs at the rear side of AVR, when one selects respective input (for example, Audio 1) and activates PURE DIRECT. If it still goes ADC/DAC way than it's really shame...

I know for Denon/Marantz, pure direct will do the trick. Not sure about Yamaha's, will have to dig in a little to find out.

 

[eycatcher]

hopefully we will see a current mid to high end marantz avr measured soon. Something like their new SR5014.

 

[scooter]

I know for Denon/Marantz, pure direct will do the trick. Not sure about Yamaha's, will have to dig in a little to find out.

I've found this schematic for 2014 series Yamaha RX-V377. According to it all analog inputs go through AD/DA I've highlighted them in yellow.
This was a budget product but I doubt anything changed since then...

 

[Juhazi]

The entry-level V-series RX-V377 does not have "Pure Direct"
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-v377-av-receiver

 

[peng]

I've found this schematic for 2014 series Yamaha RX-V377. According to it all analog inputs go through AD/DA I've highlighted them in yellow.
This was a budget product but I doubt anything changed since then...
View attachment 34803

As mentioned, that model did not have pure direct. Regardless, the higher models such as the 1060/2060 schematics show an analog direct path to the volume control IC, but it doesn't show how it is selected. D&M's don't show the "how" either, but at least you can see it could be selected via relays. It is reasonable to assume the higher models have the ADC bypass feature if pure direct is selected, and the Googleable info seem to support such assumptions, but again not detailed enough to be 100% sure.