Review and Measurements of PS Audio S300 PWR Amp

[hevymac]

Hey

I have a question regarding the S300.
I posted this to the PSAudio forums
"
Hi there
This is just to update my post.
I got a Gain Cell DAC and a S300! Also, got a used pair of Dali Minuets for my desktop system.
The filters are interesting to use in person, but, I’ve found that after adding in my S300 (broken in, 300 plus hours), my system sounds a little thin, maybe kinda hollow, I don’t really know how to explain it. It’s the same as the other two class D integrateds I have bought in the past in this respect, but much less so. In this way, I actually prefer my cheapest integrated (Marantz PM5003) as a power amp, as it doesn’t feel as hollow or paper thin. This is through all music and genres, and particularly with stringed instruments, like guitar, piano and harp…
Buuuuut, otherwise I love the Stellar “stack”. Sound staging, imaging, the decay of reverb, the ability to easily hear the tonal difference and timbre of instruments, and my fave is the melodies! When it comes to melodies, I can follow even the really simple ones so much better. I also don’t really know how to explain this, but this is all the GCD, as I hear this on my headphones too. MMnnnnn, yummy!
I’m thinking it’s the class D sound I am hearing, lots of negative feedback… Class Low volume class AB sounds great, (remember, this is a desktop system, ie low volume) and here in Japan most of us live in Apartments, and always think of our neighbours… So I can’t ever listen over maybe 80db if that.
Am I crazy? As I hear nothing but perfect praise of the S300… Maybe , like me, others have been apprehensive to criticize due to the overwhelming praise…
Maybe I need a Schiit Loki in my life? I dunno. My wife could tell after the first week that I wasn’t 100% happy, as I was when using the GCD -> PM5003 combo.
Any thoughts anyone?
Thanks
Love ya
"

Is it just class D amps that sound like this?

Any insight would be much appreciated

Thanks

Danny

 

[JohnYang1997]

Hey

I have a question regarding the S300.
I posted this to the PSAudio forums
"
Hi there
This is just to update my post.
I got a Gain Cell DAC and a S300! Also, got a used pair of Dali Minuets for my desktop system.
The filters are interesting to use in person, but, I’ve found that after adding in my S300 (broken in, 300 plus hours), my system sounds a little thin, maybe kinda hollow, I don’t really know how to explain it. It’s the same as the other two class D integrateds I have bought in the past in this respect, but much less so. In this way, I actually prefer my cheapest integrated (Marantz PM5003) as a power amp, as it doesn’t feel as hollow or paper thin. This is through all music and genres, and particularly with stringed instruments, like guitar, piano and harp…
Buuuuut, otherwise I love the Stellar “stack”. Sound staging, imaging, the decay of reverb, the ability to easily hear the tonal difference and timbre of instruments, and my fave is the melodies! When it comes to melodies, I can follow even the really simple ones so much better. I also don’t really know how to explain this, but this is all the GCD, as I hear this on my headphones too. MMnnnnn, yummy!
I’m thinking it’s the class D sound I am hearing, lots of negative feedback… Class Low volume class AB sounds great, (remember, this is a desktop system, ie low volume) and here in Japan most of us live in Apartments, and always think of our neighbours… So I can’t ever listen over maybe 80db if that.
Am I crazy? As I hear nothing but perfect praise of the S300… Maybe , like me, others have been apprehensive to criticize due to the overwhelming praise…
Maybe I need a Schiit Loki in my life? I dunno. My wife could tell after the first week that I wasn’t 100% happy, as I was when using the GCD -> PM5003 combo.
Any thoughts anyone?
Thanks
Love ya
"

Is it just class D amps that sound like this?

Any insight would be much appreciated

Thanks

Danny

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-of-the-ps-audio-stellar-gain-cell-dac.9273/

 

[hevymac]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-of-the-ps-audio-stellar-gain-cell-dac.9273/

Ummm okay.
Thanks for not answering my question. The question is about the S300 not the GCD.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Also something to point out.
There is no such thing as too much negative feedback as long the system is stable. More linear is more linear. Class d generally has less feedback than class AB circuits. (tho some new ones get nested feedback can have a tone of feedback as well).

To answer your question, it is not the s300. Not class d nor too much feedback. If you don't like the sound of a system. First take a look at your speakers, your room, placement rather than the amplifier or the dac etc.

As many people say synergy actually does exist. Problem is you can have either two distorted components together to get something acceptable or two clean components to reproduce clean signal.

 

[hevymac]

So its the designer's choice to make the Class D amp sound like other class D amps? I've had extended listening with many brands, in four different rooms that I'm familiar with. The class D amps sound similar, all of them. Esoteric, NAD, Marantz, PSAudio, MolaMola, to name the ones that stand out.

 

[JohnYang1997]

So its the designer's choice to make the Class D amp sound like other class D amps? I've had extended listening with many brands, in four different rooms that I'm familiar with. The class D amps sound similar, all of them. Esoteric, NAD, Marantz, PSAudio, MolaMola, to name the ones that stand out.

Please do controlled listening tests. Sighted listening tests are not reliable. It's not to say your impression is invalid. But it's very important part of evaluation. Class D amps also perform very differently to each other. Just like class AB type amps.
So, do the class AB amps all measure as good as class D amps? Or the other way around? Most class D amps have large distortion at high frequency. But this can also happen to class AB amps. It's not the topology that matters but the implementation.
Still you have to do controlled listening test to avoid bias.

 

[hevymac]

I'm not talking about performance. I'm talking about a certain thin, hollow sound imparted on the music. Like listening to horned speakers have a sound of their own. I know why the horned speakers sound the way they do, but the class D amps also have a sound that is consistent.
I'm asking whether that is a deliberate choice of the designers(probably the most likely reason). You know, like many designers make class A amps sound warm and fuzzy, even though they don't have to sound like that. To maybe sell it to a certain audience.

 

[amirm]

John is telling you the truth. Amplifiers do not create such characteristics.

 

[hevymac]

John is telling you the truth. Amplifiers do not create such characteristics.

Okay, cool. Then it is a choice the designers make when making the amps. That was my question

 

[JohnYang1997]

I'm not talking about performance. I'm talking about a certain thin, hollow sound imparted on the music. Like listening to horned speakers have a sound of their own. I know why the horned speakers sound the way they do, but the class D amps also have a sound that is consistent.
I'm asking where that is a deliberate choice of the designers(probably the most likely reason). You know, like many designers make class A amps sound warm and fuzzy, even though they don't have to sound like that. To maybe sell it to a certain audience.

Horn speakers have certain type sound is due to the reduction of the acoustic impedance and chance in reaction with the room and directivity. These are huge difference. However class D is not any fundamentally different from class AB amps. In fact, the feedback you are talking about almost certainly comes from a class A or class AB front end in the design. So really what you are hearing is still class AB.

Many Class D amplifiers do have a common issue which is the output filter changes the frequency response of the speaker. It's solved in better class D amplifiers. S300 is never the best, certainly not everyone praised it. It does have variation in frequency with different impedance load. And the high frequency distortion is indeed increased. Tho the sound won't be so different.

 

[hevymac]

But why would they make them sound similar? Just for product differentiation? Is it to emphasize the "clean" power?
In business we don't stray far from "never betray customer expectations". Are there any amp designers here on the forums that sell to customers that can maybe explain the class D-amps-sound-the-same-even-though-they-shouldn't thing?

EDIT, I'll add that when I'm talking about "The class D amps sound similar, all of them. Esoteric, NAD, Marantz, PSAudio, MolaMola, to name the ones that stand out. " I'm talking about the final product, the boxed solution that a customer buys, not the little chip (be it D A or AB)

 

[JohnYang1997]

But why would they make them sound similar? Just for product differentiation? Is it to emphasize the "clean" power?
In business we don't stray far from "never betray customer expectations". Are there any amp designers here on the forums that sell to customers that can maybe explain the class D-amps-sound-the-same-even-though-they-shouldn't thing?

Most amps do sound similar as long as they don't clip and are not load dependant.

 

[amirm]

Okay, cool. Then it is a choice the designers make when making the amps. That was my question

No, it is not a choice as far as sound. They use class D because it is more efficient, makes the amp light and smaller. While they may claim certain sound, there is no such thing. If you did not know what amp you are listening to, you would never be able to tell if it is class D or class AB.

 

[hevymac]

No, it is not a choice as far as sound. They use class D because it is more efficient, makes the amp light and smaller. While they may claim certain sound, there is no such thing. If you did not know what amp you are listening to, you would never be able to tell if it is class D or class AB.

I added this to my previous post
"EDIT, I'll add that when I'm talking about "The class D amps sound similar, all of them. Esoteric, NAD, Marantz, PSAudio, MolaMola, to name the ones that stand out. " I'm talking about the final product, the boxed solution that a customer buys, not the little chip (be it D A or AB) "

 

[hevymac]

No, it is not a choice as far as sound. They use class D because it is more efficient, makes the amp light and smaller. While they may claim certain sound, there is no such thing. If you did not know what amp you are listening to, you would never be able to tell if it is class D or class AB.

Also, Im not saying D A AB have different sounds. Im asking "But why would they make them (class d amp products) sound similar? "

 

[JohnYang1997]

Also, Im not saying D A AB have different sounds. Im asking "But why would they make them (class d amp products) sound similar? "

The measurable distortion and other nonlinearities are under threshold or around the threshold of human hearing.

 

[hevymac]

??

 

[JohnYang1997]

??

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...y-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734

 

[hevymac]

No no, I mean to ask, how is that an answer to my question. Unless I'm missing something?

 

[JohnYang1997]

No no, I mean to ask, how is that an answer to my question. Unless in missing something?

Any system can be described as an input times some sort of transfer function (non linearity). Audio systems except for processors are to reproduce the input signal which is the recording. Hence any system that has nonlinearities under certain threshold will sound absolutely the same(if volume matched).