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Revel F35 Speaker Review

edechamps

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Most speaker manufacturers are considering the typical room placement and they may each have a different take on what typical is. (such as right near the wall or way out in the room)

That's a reasonable assumption to make, and I agree it makes sense in principle, but it doesn't seem to be supported by the data. Let me explain:

Let's say you task me with designing a speaker and the product brief states that the speaker will be used close to a wall (or, even more extreme, a corner). In that case, my first instinct definitely won't be to target a flat response. Instead, I would compensate for boundary effects by deliberately reducing the bass output - say, a fairly drastic (and very obvious) shelf of -6 to -12 dB below 500 Hz or so, relative to a flat target. This makes a lot of sense, and in fact, this is what most room EQ would end up doing anyway.

So, if the statement that some speakers are deliberately designed to be used near a wall or corner is true, I should be able to find speakers on the market that show a clear, seemingly deliberate reduction in bass in their frequency response measurements, relative to a flat target. But so far, I haven't seen any speaker that exhibits this pattern in any obvious way. Amir certainly hasn't measured any speaker with such an obvious pattern so far. (To be clear, I'm also surprised at this result, and find it perplexing.)
 

Jon AA

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So, if the statement that some speakers are deliberately designed to be used near a wall or corner is true, I should be able to find speakers on the market that show a clear, seemingly deliberate reduction in bass in their frequency response measurements, relative to a flat target. But so far, I haven't seen any speaker that exhibits this pattern in any obvious way.
Have you tested any in-wall speakers (not in a wall)? If properly designed, they should show what you're talking about. There are also quite a few "on-wall" designs for surround use, etc, that should do pretty much the same thing but I haven't gone looking for any tests.

In my own case, the HTM-8 DIYSG speakers I built were designed with a baffle wall in mind. Measure them in the middle of a room and they have NO bass. Put them close to a wall and they're fine.
 

tuga

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That's a reasonable assumption to make, and I agree it makes sense in principle, but it doesn't seem to be supported by the data. Let me explain:

Let's say you task me with designing a speaker and the product brief states that the speaker will be used close to a wall (or, even more extreme, a corner). In that case, my first instinct definitely won't be to target a flat response. Instead, I would compensate for boundary effects by deliberately reducing the bass output - say, a fairly drastic (and very obvious) shelf of -6 to -12 dB below 500 Hz or so, relative to a flat target. This makes a lot of sense, and in fact, this is what most room EQ would end up doing anyway.

So, if the statement that some speakers are deliberately designed to be used near a wall or corner is true, I should be able to find speakers on the market that show a clear, seemingly deliberate reduction in bass in their frequency response measurements, relative to a flat target. But so far, I haven't seen any speaker that exhibits this pattern in any obvious way. Amir certainly hasn't measured any speaker with such an obvious pattern so far. (To be clear, I'm also surprised at this result, and find it perplexing.)

Audio Note AN-E (based on Snell type E):

506ANEfig4.jpg

Fig.4 shows the Lexus Signature's response on the tweeter axis at 50", averaged across a 30° horizontal window, spliced at 300Hz to the sum of the nearfield woofer and port responses, taking into account both acoustic phase and the distances of the two radiators from a nominal farfield position. The speaker's bass is well extended, but does shelve down below 120Hz. Bearing in mind that this trace includes the usual 2pi boost in the upper bass that results from the nearfield measurement technique, it looks as if the AN-E really doesn't produce as much bass as you might expect. I'm not surprised that Audio Note recommends placement close to the wall behind it. This will both extend the low frequencies, as AD found, and bring up the midbass level, though at the expense of lower-midrange smoothness.

From the owner's manual:

The ported cabinet has been designed to be placed close to room boundaries, where the bass performance is augmented significantly by the additional reinforcement offered by the nearby walls.



ATC SCM7 v3:

214ASCM7fig3.jpg

Fig.3 shows the individual responses of the woofer (blue trace) and tweeter (red). Below 350Hz, the blue trace shows the woofer's output measured in the nearfield. There is virtually none of the rise in the upper-bass response that usually results from measuring in the nearfield—the assumption behind a nearfield measurement is that the speaker baffle extends to infinity in all directions, which boosts the measured low-frequency output below a frequency related to the actual baffle dimensions. The SCM7's output is down by 6dB at the cabinet/woofer tuning frequency, as anticipated from the impedance graph. This measured behavior suggests that the little ATC will benefit from some boundary reinforcement; otherwise, the speaker's bass will sound, as JM found, "'respectable' rather than 'convincing.'"



Naim NBL:

The magnitude peak centered at 42Hz in fig.1 (impedance) indicates the tuning of the woofers' sealed enclosure and implies only moderate low-frequency extension. However, as this tuning doesn't allow for the effects of the adjacent room boundaries on the floor-adjacent woofer mounting, not too much should be read into it.
nblfig4.jpg

Fig.4 shows the NBL's response on the tweeter axis, averaged across a 30 degree horizontal window to minimize the effect of position-dependent, and hence irrelevant, interference effects. Though it is very even, the entire treble is shelved-up compared with the lower midrange and bass, which is why PM commented on the speaker's bright, forward balance. As I've said, the NBL's low bass will be boosted by the Allison Effect, but this will leave the region between 300Hz and 600Hz depressed in comparison with the regions above and below. In addition, as PM found in his in-room measurements, the upper midrange is somewhat exaggerated, which will make the speaker sound very detailed but also very critical of matching electronics.

The NBL is nominally intended to be positioned close to the rear wall (though it's always worth experimenting); each bass driver therefore operates into a sphere quadrant, which provides considerable boundary reinforcement and (just about) allows the use of two quite modest 8"-frame drivers with relatively inefficient sealed-box loading.
 
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HammerSandwich

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So, if the statement that some speakers are deliberately designed to be used near a wall or corner is true, I should be able to find speakers on the market that show a clear, seemingly deliberate reduction in bass in their frequency response measurements, relative to a flat target. But so far, I haven't seen any speaker that exhibits this pattern in any obvious way. Amir certainly hasn't measured any speaker with such an obvious pattern so far
Per ASR measurements, from ~150Hz to ultimate bass rolloff:
  1. 705P falls 2-3dB
  2. Q100 4-5dB
  3. R3 same
  4. ZA5 about 3dB
You think that's not deliberate design for boundary gain?

But for the definitive example... Who has an old Allison to send in?
 

edechamps

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Have you tested any in-wall speakers (not in a wall)? If properly designed, they should show what you're talking about. There are also quite a few "on-wall" designs for surround use, etc, that should do pretty much the same thing but I haven't gone looking for any tests. In my own case, the HTM-8 DIYSG speakers I built were designed with a baffle wall in mind. Measure them in the middle of a room and they have NO bass. Put them close to a wall and they're fine.

100% agree, but I don't think these were the types of speakers @ROOSKIE (and others trying to make the same argument) were thinking of.

Per ASR measurements, from ~150Hz to ultimate bass rolloff:
  1. 705P falls 2-3dB
  2. Q100 4-5dB
  3. R3 same
  4. ZA5 about 3dB
You think that's not deliberate design for boundary gain?

Perhaps. I get the impression that the slope would have to be stronger in amplitude and would need to start higher in frequency to truly compensate for boundary effects. As in, I would expect something way more massive, like -5 dB at 200 Hz or something. From that perspective @tuga's Naim NBL example is the only one that seems really obvious to me.

To be fair though, I'm used to setups that are plagued with such effects (bookshelfs on a desk against a corner… 3 boundaries…) so maybe I'm just projecting and asking for unreasonable overcompensation :)
 

QMuse

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I think some key aspect of the research and the reason I test and review speakers is lost. So read this. It is what I say in person when people ask me about speakers.

A well-designed speaker hugely increases the odds that you will be satisfied with it regardless of content you use, the room you use it in, or your "tastes."

We have done this with electronics where satisfaction with what I recommend, and what objective measurements show, is extremely high. We need to replicate that with speakers.

There are two steps in that:

1. Measurements. You all should know what they are by now and why we measure this way.

2. Spot listening test. This is what I am doing. Per above, a well designed speaker has high odds of satisfying me in my quick listening tests. If I say something doesn't have enough bass, or distorts quickly, then that sharply reduces the chances that we can satisfy the bolded section above.

As such, it is not the goal or desire to sit there and optimize a speaker for my room.

Now, there is an issue I spotted which was the fact that speakers with much more low frequency response were not showing that benefit. Indeed, there was an inverted relationship there. I solved that with just one EQ at one room mode. My listening setup deviates from research causing this extra factor that was not addressed by others.

Of course, room optimization is critical to good sound but is orthogonal to what speaker is well engineered.

In my country there is a joking culture very different than in your country. That results in an effect that most of our jokes would be considered very rude and offending to you although they are not in any way considered as such in my country. I will try to bridge that gap by adjusting a joke-saying for a post like the one you just wrote regarding room EQ and speakers in-room listening:

You cannot at the same time enjoy sex and wished there was no physical contact at all as that is virtually impossible. In other words, you either recognise speakers need to be room EQ-ed to get their in-room sound right or you think room EQ is a nonsense. But you simply can't have it both ways. ;)

P.S. please take no offense from this post as none was intended
 

tuga

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You cannot at the same time enjoy sex and wished there was no physical contact at all as that is virtually impossible. In other words, you either recognise speakers need to be room EQ-ed to get their in-room sound right or you think room EQ is a nonsense. But you simply can't have it both ways.

There's always the condom. ;)
 

ctrl

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Perhaps. I get the impression that the slope would have to be stronger in amplitude and would need to start higher in frequency to truly compensate for boundary effects. As in, I would expect something way more massive, like -5 dB at 200 Hz or something.
This depends very much on the distance to the boundary surface. If the loudspeaker is not placed directly against the wall, at 200Hz the influence of the boundary surface is very small - apart from the interference caused by reflections.

Visaton.de made a test for this and measured the low frequency response of a loudspeaker in different rooms at 1m and 0.1m distance from the wall and compared the averaged values with the frequency response at 1m distance. The bass driver is located on the side, the bass reflex tubes point to the rear.
1584570107745.png


"Wandabstand 10cm" = wall distance 0.1m
1584570129241.png



It can also be simulated in a very simplified way. A bookshelf loudspeaker is positioned at different distances from a boundary surface (here a side wall).
The blue curve shows the ideal free field progression with the influence of the baffle step. The green curve shows the behavior with 0.5m distance to the wall, then with 0.4, 0.3, 0.2 and 0.1m distance.
1584570674363.png
 

Soniclife

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Audio Note AN-E (based on Snell type E):

506ANEfig4.jpg

Fig.4 shows the Lexus Signature's response on the tweeter axis at 50", averaged across a 30° horizontal window, spliced at 300Hz to the sum of the nearfield woofer and port responses, taking into account both acoustic phase and the distances of the two radiators from a nominal farfield position. The speaker's bass is well extended, but does shelve down below 120Hz. Bearing in mind that this trace includes the usual 2pi boost in the upper bass that results from the nearfield measurement technique, it looks as if the AN-E really doesn't produce as much bass as you might expect. I'm not surprised that Audio Note recommends placement close to the wall behind it. This will both extend the low frequencies, as AD found, and bring up the midbass level, though at the expense of lower-midrange smoothness.

From the owner's manual:

The ported cabinet has been designed to be placed close to room boundaries, where the bass performance is augmented significantly by the additional reinforcement offered by the nearby walls.



ATC SCM7 v3:

214ASCM7fig3.jpg

Fig.3 shows the individual responses of the woofer (blue trace) and tweeter (red). Below 350Hz, the blue trace shows the woofer's output measured in the nearfield. There is virtually none of the rise in the upper-bass response that usually results from measuring in the nearfield—the assumption behind a nearfield measurement is that the speaker baffle extends to infinity in all directions, which boosts the measured low-frequency output below a frequency related to the actual baffle dimensions. The SCM7's output is down by 6dB at the cabinet/woofer tuning frequency, as anticipated from the impedance graph. This measured behavior suggests that the little ATC will benefit from some boundary reinforcement; otherwise, the speaker's bass will sound, as JM found, "'respectable' rather than 'convincing.'"



Naim NBL:

The magnitude peak centered at 42Hz in fig.1 (impedance) indicates the tuning of the woofers' sealed enclosure and implies only moderate low-frequency extension. However, as this tuning doesn't allow for the effects of the adjacent room boundaries on the floor-adjacent woofer mounting, not too much should be read into it.
nblfig4.jpg

Fig.4 shows the NBL's response on the tweeter axis, averaged across a 30 degree horizontal window to minimize the effect of position-dependent, and hence irrelevant, interference effects. Though it is very even, the entire treble is shelved-up compared with the lower midrange and bass, which is why PM commented on the speaker's bright, forward balance. As I've said, the NBL's low bass will be boosted by the Allison Effect, but this will leave the region between 300Hz and 600Hz depressed in comparison with the regions above and below. In addition, as PM found in his in-room measurements, the upper midrange is somewhat exaggerated, which will make the speaker sound very detailed but also very critical of matching electronics.

The NBL is nominally intended to be positioned close to the rear wall (though it's always worth experimenting); each bass driver therefore operates into a sphere quadrant, which provides considerable boundary reinforcement and (just about) allows the use of two quite modest 8"-frame drivers with relatively inefficient sealed-box loading.
I was just about to suggest a bunch of old British designs like that, as Linn and Naim at one time always said they designed for very close to wall loading. Makes perfect sense for small rooms to maximise the benefit of small rooms where away from wall placement isn't possible, and you need less displacement. You don't have DBL and Isobarik graphs as well do you? An unscientific study of forums suggests few people put free space speakers in free space these days.
New designs like the 8c and Kii 3 deliberately offer flexibility of placement as part of their design, for proper reasons.
 

tuga

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I was just about to suggest a bunch of old British designs like that, as Linn and Naim at one time always said they designed for very close to wall loading. Makes perfect sense for small rooms to maximise the benefit of small rooms where away from wall placement isn't possible, and you need less displacement. You don't have DBL and Isobarik graphs as well do you? An unscientific study of forums suggests few people put free space speakers in free space these days.
New designs like the 8c and Kii 3 deliberately offer flexibility of placement as part of their design, for proper reasons.

I've got these FR plots of the Isobarik:

cHTveku.png
 

tuga

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This is from a Roy Allison paper (attached):

N7GA0ct.png
 

Attachments

  • RoyAllison_technical-articles.pdf
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Webninja

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Although I thoroughly enjoy ASR and all the technical discussions, I would ask that we remove this discussion from F35 specific thread. I am really interested in this speaker and would prefer to have responses related specifically to this speaker.

This will also help future readers find and research these speaker tests in a more narrow and focused way.

What do we think?
 

BYRTT

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Hi @Webninja,

Think if you ref to above boundary discussions they related in if you look up manufacture spinoramas for F35 and M16 or be it C52 you will see production units for M16 and C52 hold their low end published slopes, but for F35 sample (production unit) tested here it looks need some boundary help to get inline manufacture spin, myself also think 500Hz-5,5kHz area for F35 is missing something compared to say their own prototype or golden sample, you can see F35 verse M16 in below animation where there is a overlay for manufacture on axis to eyeball on and lets say you can live with 5dB less sensitivity it should be clear in directivity index that for production units M16 perform much cleaner plus it can with one PEQ -3,2dB/@112Hz/Q1,2 get super close to published manufacture low end reach for F35.

8.gif
 

lonewolf

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To sum it up if possible: "audio science review" turns to be not so scientific when personal audio preferences get in front of the measured data. Then "ASR" is nothing more than another "Absolute Sound"

I didn't really think that one persons subjective observation on a quick listen to a speaker was what ASR was all about. It's a fun little bonus and a quick reality check, but there is TONS of science ahead of the quick listening notes, which should be all one really needs. If you are after "reliable" subjective listening reviews, there are tons of other sites out there offering that. The measurements provided are gold, and I'm grateful that the community finally has some!
 

lonewolf

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I thought that the recommendation was based on both, mostly the data but backed up by listening impressions. I don't really pay much attention to that part tbh, as the data is what I'm most interested in. I have the F35 speakers, so I can agree with Amir that it sounds fantastic, but the measurements also back that up. If he didn't like it after his subjective test, then meh, since the measurements wouldn't back it up :)
 

richard12511

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I thought that the recommendation was based on both, mostly the data but backed up by listening impressions. I don't really pay much attention to that part tbh, as the data is what I'm most interested in. I have the F35 speakers, so I can agree with Amir that it sounds fantastic, but the measurements also back that up. If he didn't like it after his subjective test, then meh, since the measurements wouldn't back it up :)

Conclusion and recommendation does seem to be mostly based on the subjective listen. I wish it was more based on the objective measurements.
 

waynel

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I'm wondering why we are not seeing a difference between the on axis and sound power at low frequency for a rear ported speaker. Looking at the spin for the Revel F226BE posted here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/710918-revel-owners-thread-585.html#post59388274

There is very little difference between the on axis and sound power responses at low frequency as this is a front ported speaker.

Looking at the F328Be (rear ported) here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/710918-revel-owners-thread-585.html#post59387840

We can see a clear difference between the on axis and sound power at low frequency as this is a rear ported speaker.

This raises 2 questions:

1) Was something wrong with Amir's Klippel measurement as far as capturing the low frequency sound power form the rear port?
2) Should the speaker numerical score algorithm use sound power rather than on -axis at low frequencies as to not handicap rear ported speakers (forgive me if this is already accounted for)?


Wayne
 
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HammerSandwich

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QMuse

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I'm wondering why we are not seeing a difference between the on axis and sound power at low frequency for a rear ported speaker.

LF has a natural tendency to emit in a non-beam fashion (can't remember the right english word for that effect at the moment), so no wonder there. LF naturally tends to go around the corner, unlike a laser beam. ;)

EDIT: Unless you're speculating that Klippel is somehow missing to record rear port response?
 
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