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Revel C52 Speaker Review and Measurements

MZKM

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No, that's not really surprising looking at the graphs. I meant the strange values you were getting for smoothness of the other curves compared to the predicted in-room response, not matching with the graphs visually.



As I said, the issue is specifically with your 'closest Hz less than' formula for LFX. where you have:
Hz = INDEX(SPIN!A:A, Match(B2,SPIN!D:D,1))

It should be:
Hz = INDEX(SPIN!A:A, Match(B2,SPIN!H:H,1))

This gives the correct -6 dB frequency of 62.2559 Hz (instead of 58.5938 Hz) for the Revel C52. The formula is also incorrect for the NHT speaker, but the value happens to be the same for the listening window and sound power curve.

This 'closest Hz less than' should be the default value used for the LFX calculation, for the reasons I explained in my previous post. The other two methods don't make sense when looking carefully at Olive's description and formula for LFX.
I figured out the graph issue, the trend line was using linear spacing, if I switch the graph to linear spacing, the trend line matches much better. The trend line can be set to log scaling and it adjusts; this changes it's formula, but the formula is just slope and intercept of the data points so all is good.

Fixed the LFX error, thanks.
 

dukanvadet

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This is just amazing. I have to say I had my doubts when seeing the Kali measurements since i have alot of trust in the designers (Of course we still have no idea if it is from design or a faulty speaker). I can only say I am happy that i didnt chime in and add to noise. If this continues in this pace it is only a matter of time before this will be the biggest library of verified high quality speaker measurements. It is a great time to be alive.

btw: I see some almost to good to be true room measurements in this thread, is the dips from room modes smoothed over or what is happening there? Just really great acoustics? filling in dips from the room with EQ is not recommended since they will come back as peaks with a vengance at another listening position and send tons of power in to your drivers and easily drive them past linear excursion.
 
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amirm

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I'm starting to think that @amirm should try to come up with a way to export the data in the rawest form possible (though after the field separation math of course, otherwise things get really tricky). He could distribute this raw data in each review.
I don't know that I want to host the raw files for every measurements. They range from 250 megabytes to nearly 1 gigabytes (for higher resolution charts). Klippel does have a free reader that lets you analyze and export the data. It has a learning curve though.

I am however very motivated to get more tools written to create better and more useful data out automatically. So if there are volunteers, let me know and we could take it from there.
 
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amirm

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This is where I complain about contour plots, but before that, is there some software that can use that CEA2034.txt data to produce a contour plot? I don't know anything about the math involved if so. If that's possible I will stop asking for contour plots in every review ;)
I thought there would be one but I have yet to find it. I spent a couple of hours and managed to get the measurement into Matlab. But now I have to learn how to use 3-D plots in Matlab which I have not used before. If someone knows of such a tool, please let me know. It is not a very common graph type used elsewhere.
 

BYRTT

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Yes of course.

Sounds great, btw it looks REW can import IR from txt-files.

I thought there would be one but I have yet to find it. I spent a couple of hours and managed to get the measurement into Matlab. But now I have to learn how to use 3-D plots in Matlab which I have not used before. If someone knows of such a tool, please let me know. It is not a very common graph type used elsewhere.

Is some of the views below usefull for your presentation needs, as some talked about it could be fun and learning drag all the 10º stepped txt-files into free VituixCAD and look up graphs plus for example use some upstream EQ, below is a few overview of the varius graphics presentation it can do.

3.png


4.png
 

Sancus

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I thought there would be one but I have yet to find it. I spent a couple of hours and managed to get the measurement into Matlab. But now I have to learn how to use 3-D plots in Matlab which I have not used before. If someone knows of such a tool, please let me know. It is not a very common graph type used elsewhere.

Hm I wonder how that math would work, as I don't really know if the DI/reflection curves contain enough data to even know what the response is to the same spatial resolution. My uneducated guess is that maybe they don't?

Is it difficult to export measurements for every 10 degrees +/- 180 in the horizontal and vertical as used by the SPL Horizontal/Vertical graphs and the contour plots you posted before? E: Actually looking at them it seems the resolution is 5 degrees or even lower...
 

jhaider

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Yeah, what's so impressive about this speaker is that it essentially has the radiation pattern of a good vertically aligned speaker despite being a long center. This is rare; most center speakers have good vertical directivity and poor horizontal drectivity instead.

That's why I would love to see the horizontal and vertical polar maps.
 

Sancus

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That's why I would love to see the horizontal and vertical polar maps.

I am really curious about how wide the horizontal dispersion actually is, based on the hard-to-read SPL line graphs, it might be 60+ degrees without much SPL loss or any cancellation, which is pretty crazy compared to normal designs.
 

bobbooo

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Am I remembering right that the max score is a 9? As the center speaker wouldn't be expected to carry much bass the 7.58 would be a good result.

We assumed the max score for ideal speakers would be 10, plugged this into Sean Olive's preference rating formula, along with ideal values for narrow-band deviation of on-axis and pedicted in-room response of 0 (no deviation) and smoothness of 1 (perfect smoothness), and rearranged the formula to solve for the -6 dB low-frequency extension to arrive at an ideal value of 14.5 Hz. This seems bang-on for ideal bass response, guaranteeing flat, 0 dB-level response from 20 Hz upwards (the lower limit of audibile frequencies). This strongly suggests 10 was indeed the maximum score intended by Olive when he devised the rating formula.

Having said this, no speaker (with current technology) would be able to achieve such ideal performance in all variables of the formula and so get a perfect 10, so I'd say if any speaker gets a 9 or above, it's practically as good as a you're going to get within the limits of audibility.
 
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amirm

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Is some of the views below usefull for your presentation needs, as some talked about it could be fun and learning drag all the 10º stepped txt-files into free VituixCAD and look up graphs plus for example use some upstream EQ, below is a few overview of the varius graphics presentation it can do.
Ah, those are perfect! What is the process of importing external data into it?
 

napilopez

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Ah, those are perfect! What is the process of importing external data into it?

It's super easy, at least with REW files (with some caveats). It's mainly meant to design speakers so you can't really manipulate data much with it, but it has a nice array of directivity visualizations as noted by @BYRTT . Freeware too!

Basically open the app, then go to the crossover tab and draw a line to from one red dot to the other to "connect" the "driver". This is just necessary just to get things going since it's a speaker design app. Then head back to the main tab, tap on the folder icon next to "frequency responses" and select your data.

That said, as far as I know, it only accepts one measurement per file, so each angle needs its own .txt file. They also have to be labelled correctly. By default that's: hor 10, hor -10, ver 10, ver -10, etc, but you can change the keywords in the options menu. You can verify each angle is assigned correctly from the main tab.

You also can't import averages, but it'll compute the spins itself by default after import. I assume you'll keep on using the klippel software for the spin image itself, but if you do use VituixCAD note that its DI curves are scaled differently than the top curves on the same graph for some reason(3dB instead of 5dB, I kept wondering what was wrong for a bit). The creator is also on DIYAudio, I believe, if you ever need to reach out to him.

It's also handy because if you want to overlay measurements found elsewhere, it has a built in "SPL Trace" function I'd mentioned previously that works quite well.
 
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Krunok

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Listening window includes on-axis measurement where this dip is at it's maximum depth. It doesn't include vertical measurements where the 2100Hz dip develops.

Horizontal reflection measurement includes much more measurements than listening window, and these measurements don't have 800Hz dip. That evens it out. No 2100Hz dip because drivers are placed vertically.

Right, because it's present on a bunch of vertical measurements As I said, listening window only includes +10 and -10 vertical measurements

So the answer is that 2100 Hz vertical dip is not included in listening window because it doesn't happen in +/- 10deg while 800-1000Hz dip happens in +/- 10deg?
 

Juhazi

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While dispersion and response smoothness are of crucial importance, I again want to remind of the importance of other attributes too. Low bass, step response, distortion profile and CSD will tell a lot of how loud and clean the speaker will be. Occasional readers with less experience might also benefit from some kind of categorization of intended usage and spl capacity - eg. desktop/hifi on-stand with subwoofer/hifi floorstander fullrange

By just looking at responses of LSR305 one might think that it's one the best loudspeakers in the world...
 

Krunok

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While dispersion and response smoothness are of crucial importance, I again want to remind of the importance of other attributes too. Low bass, step response, distortion profile and CSD will tell a lot of how loud and clean the speaker will be. Occasional readers with less experience might also benefit from some kind of categorization of intended usage and spl capacity - eg. desktop/hifi on-stand with subwoofer/hifi floorstander fullrange

By just looking at responses of LSR305 one might think that it's one the best loudspeakers in the world...

Step response found himself in quite an important company here. From what I have learned, once you fix the phase response at LP to be smooth and as close to minimum phase as possible you will pretty much fix everything in time domain: excess phase will be horizintal line with values close to 0, step response would look like a nice triangle and GD graph will look nice and low as well. But I never got to understand if and how getting the phase right at LP really affects SQ. @KSTR you are a pro, what is your take on this? :)
 

napilopez

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While dispersion and response smoothness are of crucial importance, I again want to remind of the importance of other attributes too. Low bass, step response, distortion profile and CSD will tell a lot of how loud and clean the speaker will be. Occasional readers with less experience might also benefit from some kind of categorization of intended usage and spl capacity - eg. desktop/hifi on-stand with subwoofer/hifi floorstander fullrange

By just looking at responses of LSR305 one might think that it's one the best loudspeakers in the world...

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but your last line does bring up a point I've been thinking about for some time: the more I listen to speakers, the more I feel the gap between great expensive speakers and great inexpensive speakers is really way smaller than the magnitude of their price difference. Of course, all of us measurements-liking folks know price isn't an indicator of quality, but it just becomes more obvious in my practical experience all the time.

Having the luxury of reviewing speakers sent by manufacturers and measuring them has to some degree divorced price from my consideration of them during listening tests. This is good and bad.

On the one hand, I think I pretty much ignore price in my listening impressions nowadays. I'm not hoping my multi-thousand dollar puchase was worth it. When you go from testing $12,000 towers to testing $300 speakers+sub the next day and don't feel like it's a big downgrade - if a downgrade at all - it gets harder to justify the extra expense. Of course, I can't completely eliminate my biases, but if I were to rank the speakers I've heard in terms of my memory of them, or divide them into tiers, I don't think there's be much relation to price at all.

So my expectations for expensive speakers have gotten much lower, so much that they vary rarely 'wow' me any more. I definitely tend to be wowed more by cheap and small speakers. On the negative side, I have to remind myself sometimes that "hey, this speaker is expensive and should probably perform better at this price" when doing reviews.

Instead, for me price now comes to play in just a few factors: design, customer service, build quality, versatility. Of course, there are still some acoustic aspects hard to find at a low price, such as smooth response, deep bass, and high SPL levels in a compact body. But that versatility one is important. A big tower speaker that's easy to drive and has high SPL limits will likely sound good in almost any setup. Something like the 305P MKII will be good within limits. Not crazy high SPL, if you can deal with the hiss, and if durability and longevity isn't a priority (who knows how long the components will last). Also if you don't care about looks, because it isn't exactly a looker :)

But if those things aren't an issue to you.... maybe the LSR305 could be the best speaker in the world =]

Funny thing is for all I love speakers and have dedicated so much time to learning about them and testing them in the past year, nothing comes close to binaural audio through headphones for me in terms of realism and spatial cues. It's a shame more music isn't recorded this way, and that it's not really a shareable experience. I also usually seem to get lucky with the HRTFs - I guess I just have a very average head:)

Step response found himself in quite an important company here. From what I have learned, once you fix the phase response at LP to be smooth and as close to minimum phase as possible you will pretty much fix everything in time domain: excess phase will be horizintal line with values close to 0, step response would look like a nice triangle and GD graph will look nice and low as well. But I never got to understand if and how getting the phase right at LP really affects SQ. @KSTR you are a pro, what is your take on this? :)

My understanding is that for the most part phase shift and group delay (at least above schroeder) and time alignment in general don't affect people's preference all that much. Reflections complicate things a lot. It's probably more important in the nearfield with more direct sound though. Might be correlated with research showing mixing engineers tend to prefer narrow directivity designs and deader rooms too (fewer reflections), at least when doing their jobs. But some people say they're really sensitive to it. I thought I could notice a bit more sharpness when I turned off the phase alignment feature on the KEF LS50W on and off, but I'd need to do a blind test to know whether I actually preferred that sound.
 
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3ll3d00d

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I thought there would be one but I have yet to find it. I spent a couple of hours and managed to get the measurement into Matlab. But now I have to learn how to use 3-D plots in Matlab which I have not used before. If someone knows of such a tool, please let me know. It is not a very common graph type used elsewhere.
If you post data like https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...wered-monitor-review.10859/page-5#post-304253 then it can be loaded directly into https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/polarmap-viewer-for-nfs-data.10944/
 

KSTR

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Step response found himself in quite an important company here. From what I have learned, once you fix the phase response at LP to be smooth and as close to minimum phase as possible you will pretty much fix everything in time domain: excess phase will be horizintal line with values close to 0, step response would look like a nice triangle and GD graph will look nice and low as well. But I never got to understand if and how getting the phase right at LP really affects SQ. @KSTR you are a pro, what is your take on this? :)
My findings on the audibilty of excess phase:
First of all, like anything subtle (phase errors sure fall into the subtle category), it takes some training and skills to hear it. Just like's Amir's outstanding capabilities to identify subtle codec artifacts in 320k MP3's vs original WAV required a long training period, phase error detection skills need the same level of dedication, so to say.
The problem area of excess phase is mainly below 1kHz or so where our hearing is not only a frequency/level analyser but also judges actual waveform and the waveforms get distorted by excess phase (and by the normal minimum phase of LF rolloffs also, that is). This has a slight effect on the "timbre" of steady-state signals that are asymmetric (even order overtones dominating), organ notes are a good example for this.
For "bass transients" like kick-drums, plucked upright bass and slapped electric bass etc, excess phase at LF spreads out the energy in time, the lower freqcuency components arriving later. This makes the transient sound less punchy, compact and impactful and also slightly sharper/spikey (the HF content gets masked less by the LF content). This is probably the most drastic effect one will hear after while. Subwoofer crossovers at the typical 80Hz do a lot of damage here, as do other bass to low-mid crossovers in the 200...400Hz range, the higher the order the worse.
I also found a sharpening / more pin-point stereo imaging and stage depth when excess phase is removed, but this is likely a side-effect of the reduced "computing power" we need apply to seperate transient incidents because those are more compact.
I also found that LF room modes etc don't have too much masking effect, the difference still is heard even when the bass region is quite corrupted in the time domain by room effects. On the other hand, phase errors are usually more benign when listening with headphones, not something one would expect and I don't have a good explanation for this.

My overall take: when designing speakers, don't sacrifice other more important aspects just for a notably better phase response. Linear phase can easily installed afterwards by inversely pre-distorting the signal with a FIR-"phase-unwrapper". Linear phase nomally means minimum phase, of the equivalent single driver speaker, but in some cases a bit of phase unwrapping of the minimum phase bass roll-off can be beneficial to speed up the bass response, for ported boxes with rather high cutoff (50Hz'ish) and the ususal 2nd order electrical subsonic filter found in active monitors, making the roll-off 6th-order.
 

edechamps

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I don't know that I want to host the raw files for every measurements. They range from 250 megabytes to nearly 1 gigabytes (for higher resolution charts).

Well, the price of hosting a 1 GB file is negligible compared to the price of the NFS (or anything else really)… you could upload it to Google Drive or something.

What would be great is if you could upload one of these large raw data sets for one speaker. Then we can start figuring out what we could do with it. "Upload the raw data and they will come", as they say :)

Really my main concern here is making sure such a wealth of data is not lost to time. It would really be a shame if we come up with new and interesting ways to analyse speaker data in 2 years and then realize we can't retroactively use it on previous speaker reviews because the raw data is gone. I sure hope you keep the raw data on long-term storage with backups at least!

Here's one example of "exotic" analysis that would make more sense for us to do ourselves: comparing the phase responses of two speakers to figure out if one can combine them as center and left/right channels without facing problematic interference.
 
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Thomas savage

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There's a few interest topics that have developed out of this thread, it would be great if new threads could be created by those involved rather than losing it in this one.

Cheers

Ps I can move posts all I need is the post numbers and a thread title from you.
 
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