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PrimaLuna Dialogue Three Preamp Review
- Thread starter amirm
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DSJR
Major Contributor
I wonder what you'd make of a Croft Micro 25 preamp, until recently (before Glenn's untimely passing and subsequent cessation of business) around £800 or less. The line stages have plenty (too much) of gain which was best altered by adjusting feedback resistors I believe, noise was low and when I quickly compared with my trusty neutral op-amp based preamp, the two sounded broadly the same. HFN tested the matching power amp which was a valve input-MOS-FET output and measured just like a typical valve amp (2.4 ohm output impedance) but they never did the preamp, the nearest was a Stereophile mauling of the integrated amp, which used a fairly similar line stage apparently (the RIAA was awful, but Glenn claimed they loaded the fixed output incorrectly, or words to that effect
I mention this as Croft did have a small following in the US and I believe someone over that way tarts up (or used to) the basic products and charges far more for doing so.
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Do you believe you could outperform a Dual Clutch Transmission with a stick and clutch?
I bought my M3 with the stick rather than the DCT option because it would be more fun for me, not because I had a prayer of doing faster lap times. When was the last time you saw a stick in an F1 car?
Oh, and I'm American.
It's obvious. Don't take it as an offense, but only those who have always driven automatic cars don't understand the total difference in feeling with a manual gearbox car. Driving is not only changing from one gear to another in the shortest possible time on a straight line, it is also being able to feel and fully manage the relationship with the engine, having the clutch under your foot and being able to control the rpm and how it affects traction, climbing a series of tight hairpin bends and managing braking and re-acceleration just and exactly as YOU want, using engine braking without breaking down the car and without a sophisticated electronic card having to do it for you. Using a manual gearbox is the essence of sporty driving, even if it doesn't perform as well as a sports automatic, but this is difficult for those who have only ever used an automatic gearbox to understand. (it's also incredibly funnier)
I'm unfamiliar with the current commercial landscape, so can't help there. But certainly any of the examples in Morgan Jones's book or any of my own designs (like this or this or this) will run rings around the unit reviewed here. Or Allen Wright's preamps. Or the Joe Curcio designs. Or Tim DeParavicini's. Or...
DanielT
Major Contributor
Thanks for your posts in the thread.With them I got my question in my #27 explained, ie if it is not possible to get better performance better performance out of a tube pre amp that is.
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OK. What does that have to do with Primaluna?
Yes, I get all that. That's why I chose it, even though it is going to be slower in almost any metric. Maybe we are somehow talking past each other.
A DCT (Edit: or SMG a-la F1) to me is for a race car. A stick is for a sports car.
An automatic is for my mother, even though she still likes to drive a stick from time to time.
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Would like to think I could but you are probably right. Which does beg the question as to why this product would even exist.
It won't be as reliable as the SS pre, it's more expensive, in practical terms it is probably safe enough but it would not pass CE, you have to replace tubes as they degrade or die so there's an ongoing cost of ownership, it's heavy, it takes up a lot of space, and it looks like a cross between a bread bin and a toast rack...
I've had two Conrad-Johnson preamps, a PV7 and a PV10. They were both considerably better than this Prima Luna. Mostly, though, I don't use a preamp,so I sold them on.
Here are some of my test results on the PV10A => C-J 10 A Line Stage
And here is it's phono stage => C-J 10A Phono stage
Here are some of my test results on the PV10A => C-J 10 A Line Stage
And here is it's phono stage => C-J 10A Phono stage
McIntosh does make some good ones, though much more expensive, and definitely not 10X better. There are going to be better ones, but it will be tough to find too many that are 2X better in SNR or THD, let alone 10X.
Here's one example:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/mcintosh-c1000-preamplifier-system-measurements, the T (C1000T) version's measured much worse than the SS (C1000P) version, obviously.
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Yes, American. And I drove my fair share of manuals, and got pretty darn good with heal toe too. There is nothing functional a manual can do that a dual clutch can't do better.
The analogy is stick with dual clutch. Never have I mentioned automatic.
Roll starting is as useful as tube amps providing ambient light.
Since Amir invites us to opine, I intend in this instance to do so.
As I'm aware, Prima Luna tube equipment is fairly popular with traditional audiophiles. This is true of tube equipment generally. So how come?
In the first place, my opinion, (not being any sort of expert), is based on the anecdotal attestations of hundreds of tube-owning audiophiles, especially dozens of whom are earnest and have extensive personal listening experience. Secondly, based on comparing their impressions with objective test results such as we find here at ASR.
The primary reason folks like tube amps is that they produce relatively high levels of 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortion. And when I say "relatively" I mean with respect to higher order harmonics which are also present in tube amps.
I've encountered one tube enthusiast who as listen in his home dozens if not hundreds of pricey, high-end amplifiers and preamps. He has asserted that the problem with most solid-state is that it must use negative feedback to stabilize the amp and this feedback produce nasty sounding higher order harmonics. (I have no reason to disagree that high-order HD sounds nasty.) Or in other words, tube equipment sounds better mainly because it produces fewer high-order harmonics. He further asserts the presence of 2nd/3rd order harmonics irrelevant because they are imperceptible or at worse benign, were as even small amounts of higher-order are perceived as "harshness"; (the higher the order, the more offensive).
But, IMHO, I say he is wrong. All tube measurements that I have seen have far higher high-order harmonics that the best current solid-state amplifiers including (of course) class D amps. I've suggest to him for over a dozen years that surely there is some low level at which higher-order (or any order) of harmonics are completely inaudible: he has pretty much said no, no, no.
The role played by relatively high 2nd/3rd harmonics, (IMHO), is to:
For my part I personally would rather the recording provide the "musicality", not the amplification. This is indeed what above average albums do with great sufficiency.
Confounding discussion such as this here at ASR is the chorus of hardcore sound difference deniers who categorically insist the amps and preamps working within intended parameters all sound the same. Presumably the would include the Prima Luna preamp in question versus, say, the Benchmark LA4. Many of us realize this is balderdash.
As I'm aware, Prima Luna tube equipment is fairly popular with traditional audiophiles. This is true of tube equipment generally. So how come?
In the first place, my opinion, (not being any sort of expert), is based on the anecdotal attestations of hundreds of tube-owning audiophiles, especially dozens of whom are earnest and have extensive personal listening experience. Secondly, based on comparing their impressions with objective test results such as we find here at ASR.
The primary reason folks like tube amps is that they produce relatively high levels of 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortion. And when I say "relatively" I mean with respect to higher order harmonics which are also present in tube amps.
I've encountered one tube enthusiast who as listen in his home dozens if not hundreds of pricey, high-end amplifiers and preamps. He has asserted that the problem with most solid-state is that it must use negative feedback to stabilize the amp and this feedback produce nasty sounding higher order harmonics. (I have no reason to disagree that high-order HD sounds nasty.) Or in other words, tube equipment sounds better mainly because it produces fewer high-order harmonics. He further asserts the presence of 2nd/3rd order harmonics irrelevant because they are imperceptible or at worse benign, were as even small amounts of higher-order are perceived as "harshness"; (the higher the order, the more offensive).
But, IMHO, I say he is wrong. All tube measurements that I have seen have far higher high-order harmonics that the best current solid-state amplifiers including (of course) class D amps. I've suggest to him for over a dozen years that surely there is some low level at which higher-order (or any order) of harmonics are completely inaudible: he has pretty much said no, no, no.
The role played by relatively high 2nd/3rd harmonics, (IMHO), is to:
- Mask higher-order harmonics certainly, and perhaps also noise and other signal defects.
- Make the sound "warmer" and less "harsh" -- or as some would have it "more musical".
For my part I personally would rather the recording provide the "musicality", not the amplification. This is indeed what above average albums do with great sufficiency.
Confounding discussion such as this here at ASR is the chorus of hardcore sound difference deniers who categorically insist the amps and preamps working within intended parameters all sound the same. Presumably the would include the Prima Luna preamp in question versus, say, the Benchmark LA4. Many of us realize this is balderdash.
Often asserted, never demonstrated.
if the sound is harsh why not spend the money fixing that problem instead of applying a sticking plaster (that probably won't work anyway)?
Forums are littered with people being advised to 'try valves' to fix harsh sound when the problem is usually that their speakers are expensive rubbish and their rooms are as barren as the Gobi Desert.
Forums are littered with people being advised to 'try valves' to fix harsh sound when the problem is usually that their speakers are expensive rubbish and their rooms are as barren as the Gobi Desert.
I see no reason why DCT can't be for a sports car neither. Maybe I drove enough stick in my life and no longer care for it, but once I drove DCT for the first time in my life, I knew I was in the future.
If you want to get from point A to point B, in the highway, local, uphill, downhill, and then get on with your day, automatic is the way to go in my opinion. My Subaru is CVT auto, let's me do what I need to do with efficiency. Now if I was rich, I'd buy two more cars, one stick, one DCT.
Nango
Major Contributor
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