@hardisj I read on another site that you also looked at your in room response using RTA. When you did that, what was the magnitude of the 2-3KHz bump? I see a bump in my room too, pretty much consistent with the predicted in-room, a dB or two. But I am wondering if it was different in your room.
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Philharmonic BMR Monitor Semi-Objective Review - Road Show Stop 1
- Thread starter Steve Dallas
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I meant that I was playing music at the time and watching the RTA to find what notes I was having issues with.
ROOSKIE
Major Contributor
Sorry about that, I did listen to part of your review while doing another task.
Listened again and you quote 3% at 100hrz which is correct.
I do understand that is common place for manufacturer rated Xmax to deviate from any standard since there is no standard that manufacturers all use. Some use 20%, some 10% some just calculate theoretical xmax or other simple means. Almost always Voice Coil Magazine published testing shows Klipple tested and standardized xmax of a given driven to be less then spec. (like the recent Purifi 4", rated at 8.8mm found to be compliance limited at 4.9mm and presenting high levels of mechanical noise when pressed beyond, or really most any driver they have tested with a few notable exceptions. Those notable exceptions are usually drivers designed with the aid of the Klipple equipment such a PE's new 5.25" E150he Epique drivers, or a recent MISCO 6.5")
Generally it seems SB acoustics is using a 20% distortion level for Xmax, as this is obviously usually being reached in the bass region it is likely a good choice for maximum linear output. 10% is conservative though laudable. I have no problem with a manufacturer using 20% as long as it actual from testing and not some calculated BS.
It also need to be noted what percentage of the drivers actual distortion is 2nd harmonic vs higher orders. 10% of 2nd order distortion is surely less of an issue vs 10% of 3rd.
That never seems to be valued in the Xmax figure.
If you had 10% distortion at 60hrz and the driver presented that on a peak in loud playback, would the slight character or extra energy added at 120hrz really be audible ? In what ways could we test this? I know Tom Nousain (and others)tested this publicly a bit blind back in day but the Info seems lost after his passing.
I know this is sort of off topic so I will stop for now on that.
After the 2nd listen what really caught my attention is your 2" absorption. I am wondering if you know what the absorption characteristics are for the material and how does it change the frequency response of the reflections. Toole in his book seems pretty adamant that absorptive material be given a long conservative pause before being implemented as the material near universally absorbs in a very non linear fashion and therefore takes some real effort to get right and more often is done wrong even by very smart folks.
It sure seems that a wide dispersion design is calling for near zero absorption beyond typical comfortable room furnishings and rather some light but smart diffraction to help energy dissipate and not overbuild. But to do so in a way that preserves the wide dispersion character, scale and size. And in the case of a speaker with great off axis linearity, preserves that well earned linearity.
Finally I love your reviews, I really do and like how you nit pick the designs so I hope you can dig my nitpicking.
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I'm sure Erin did his homework on the absorption, but I was very surprised to hear 2" wasn't enough to tame the treble reflections which are rather short in wavelength.
It isn’t about HF absorption. It’s about broadband absorption. Remember, I talked specifically about this speaker being very wide in horizontal radiation and this occurs not just in HF but also at midband frequencies. Thus, the suggestion for trying 4-inch absorption. And this suggestion is for small rooms to help balance out the “diffuse” imaging within soundstage *if you are interested in trying it*.
And finally, these are suggestions. Not musts. Not guarantees. Just suggestions based on the data and my experience.
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I guess I shouldn't use the term treble. What I meant was most of the frequencies played by the Accuton midrange and the ribbon tweeter.
NoSnakeOil2
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Erin, I was so certain this would be my "end game" speaker..... Maybe my old ears won't pick up on the things you did, because I just want to want them. I love those cabinets. Regardless, thanks for your work on this stuff.
There are many very happy owners of Dennis' Speakers. I am one of them. While I respect Erin, I would not base a decision on his opinion for something that simply is not that egregious of a fault. That slight rise in the mids, can easily be tamed with a little EQ if you are troubled by it. That said, there have been many owners of the V2 Speaker stand up saying they aren't troubled by it. Some, on the other hand, do experience it.
FWIW, I consider my Phil3s and BMRs (ca. 2018) to be end game Speakers. I will not likely be able to afford anything better considering how far above their price point these are capable of competing.
More to the point, you should consider if you like a very wide dispersion Speaker (I do). It sounds very natural at reproducing instruments I have played. Part of that is due to the dispersion which is a major goal of Dennis' work (himself a trained performing musician).
Anyway, I'm not here to try to sell you on the Speaker, rather to encourage you to decide for yourself and not put undo weight to a single opinion.
I definitely have not heard as many speakers as Erin, nor is my ear as trained as his, but I have owned quite a few speakers in the $2000 range (E.g., Kef R300, Buchardt S400, Ascend EX/LX, and others), and I enjoy the BMR the most. With that being said, if you listen at above average volumes or plan on using in a home theater, these might not be the best choice for you. Similarly, if you’re listening room is small these might not be the best choice. Every speaker in this price range will have trade offs, and the BMR is no different.
Not planned so far.
As a mainly headphone guy who has recently become interested in the Philharmonic BMR Monitor, I've enjoyed reading this thread. Good info.
My primary use case would be nearfield, possibly even desktop.
Anyone have experience or comments on that? TIA.
My primary use case would be nearfield, possibly even desktop.
Anyone have experience or comments on that? TIA.
Well yeah. Probably would be on stands immediately in front of the desk. But it's a pretty big desk. 40 inches from the current Emotivas to my head.
I’ve been enjoying my Phil gear for around 6 years and counting. They’re hard to beat. The Monitors are outrageously clean sounding and do a very wonderful job unless you are trying to push 100+w continuously.
As said above, these are not petite desktops. If you can put them on stands, you will be well served. And unless you are a crazy bass-head, you won’t miss a Sub or 2.
(Btw, I’m a crazy bass-head!
)FWIW, Dennis focuses more on acoustic music, but I’m a rocker hard and true even though I am classically trained. These work well on all genres except maybe deep Electronica and other manufactured music with deep Bass. One of my test situations involves distorted instruments and/or vocals. As a Saxophonist, I also test heavily with Sax music: the Sax and Trombone both are known to be challenging to reproduce well due to very complex tone and timbre.
I am strongly opinionated here, but to me, nothing else I listened to made me feel as if I were among musicians making music again.
C’mon, K… you won’t show your near field HTs?!!
And maybe a teaser of that super beautiful HiRes photo of the Monitor you took a couple days back? (That was a stunner!)
I don’t work for any company… but here… check this out!!!
BTW, the one I linked is frankly the best of what you’d shown, imho. You can see the colors up front, especially near the top. Other pics had too much reflection on the side dominating the image.
BTW, the one I linked is frankly the best of what you’d shown, imho. You can see the colors up front, especially near the top. Other pics had too much reflection on the side dominating the image.
Mine's more cluttered than that. It's my WFH workstation and has my personal computers. 3 monitors and a laptop on the front, another laptop on a side extension. I'll reclaim some landscape when I retire.
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