Neumann KH80 II / Genelec 8320 With USB in Future Product?

[bodhi]

Easy. Why suggesting me with large Kali and JBL? They have large hiss audible in a few meters. And why headphones in my own room? They harm ears.

I am exploiting zero-noise small monitor speakers within a few feet. Zero-noise, good sound and convenience are things PC folks can use of; what is wrong with that? Any regulations that PC DIYers are forbidden to make use of those speakers?

Also regarding the larger Genelec noise, some other people may also have questions. Larger ones have large noise because of much larger power gains in the amplifiers.
This hiss SPL at 10cm also suggests that larger model has larger noise within same series. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1n62hGAdKptSSKC74_fIT_R7DxFJ60YR2_O9C8x-vYQI/edit#gid=0

I'm not suggesting headphones, I suggested connecting the speakers to the headphone output.

What I'm saying that you are overanalyzing things and imagining possible problems by just endlessly reading stuff in internet. For example, do you know what the noise floor is in your listening room? I can barely hear the noise from the 8350 is I put my ear right next to the tweeter but hearing that from 1m away when there is air conditioning on, refrigerator is making noise or the computer is on? No way that is possible.

So, how about you order some JBL 308p speakers and see how you like it? Now you get some actual experience on the subject instead of keeping on analyzing stuff on internet.

What if you notice that they sound just great and the noise does not bother you at all? You just saved a lot of money not to mention time. If you can't stand the noise and the analog connection makes the sound unbearable you can send the speakers back and think about the next options.

 

[superbluecat]

In my mind there is not much value in waiting for some future that may or may not come to pass, just for USB.
I also don't see much value in saving "money" and thus going to a smaller thing that is compromised again by using a 4" woofer.
View attachment 314834


I believe this to be the minimum in the near field:

Don't let your dreams be dreams, my dude.
Just mount a DAC with balanced output on the underside of your desk and nobody will be the wiser, there really is no need to wait just for USB.


About that, the KH120 II makes a serious difference. If you have the space for it, i would get those. Not for the digital input, but for their larger woofer.
If it's just about the money, watch the gif above a few times.

Well, that is bassy, the bass even pops out from the 4-inch speakers I use now.
I have tried 5 inch woofers before, and I don't think I can take the quaking bass, so four inch is probably what I take as maximum...


For future products I am more predicting than guessing... Like LG is launching new 4K monitor with MiniLED, it is a trend if service providers want to make iterations and sell products to more people and get more profit...

But I see KH120 II and DAC are two good things to try later. In a short time I am not buying things again, all parts set for my PC

 

[superbluecat]

I'm not suggesting headphones, I suggested connecting the speakers to the headphone output.

What I'm saying that you are overanalyzing things and imagining possible problems by just endlessly reading stuff in internet. For example, do you know what the noise floor is in your listening room? I can barely hear the noise from the 8350 is I put my ear right next to the tweeter but hearing that from 1m away when there is air conditioning on, refrigerator is making noise or the computer is on? No way that is possible.

So, how about you order some JBL 308p speakers and see how you like it? Now you get some actual experience on the subject instead of keeping on analyzing stuff on internet.

What if you notice that they sound just great and the noise does not bother you at all? You just saved a lot of money not to mention time. If you can't stand the noise and the analog connection makes the sound unbearable you can send the speakers back and think about the next options.

Actually I have tried some 5 inch speakers earlier. Both me and my roommate cannot take the quaking bass, so I don't think it is good to get big ones, for me.
I have got some quiet, strong and thick fans for my PC (~33DB when idle); other noises shut into the living room; so hissing does stand out.
And hissing sounds upsetting compared to fan noise.
Actually I think PC is more demanding than professionals in noise reduction, usaully within 1m on desktop, and entertainment cannot tolerate more noise than mandatory work

 

[bodhi]

Actually I have tried some 5 inch speakers earlier. Both me and my roommate cannot take the quaking bass, so I don't think it is good to get big ones, for me.
I have got some quiet, strong and thick fans for my PC (~33DB when idle); other noises shut into the living room; so hissing does stand out.
And hissing sounds upsetting compared to fan noise.

8350 has 23dBA noise at 10cm so your computer, while idle, sounds at least twice at loud. Even the JBL that is considered to have loud hissing noise is 30dBA @10cm.

And is your computer idle when you are using it? No.

 

[superbluecat]

8350 has 23dBA noise at 10cm so your computer, while idle, sounds at least twice at loud. Even the JBL that is considered to have loud hissing noise is 30dBA @10cm.

And is your computer idle when you are using it? No.

I also do not want any hissing or coil whine when browing web pages. That's the point.
Cheap JBL can make quite noticable noise. Maybe only products like Neumann with less than 20db can solve it within certain budget.

Note that I have very high demand on purifying any harsh noise; picked certain models of GPU and PSU to get coil whine proof earlier.
If using cheaper large speakers hissing is audible among the smooth sound of computer fans even if the SPL is actually lower.

I heard that as people get older they gradually hear poorly and cannot hear the 30db hiss anymore. Every person is different, and I can still hear sharp...

 

[bodhi]

I also do not want any hissing or coil whine when browing web pages. That's the point.
Cheap JBL can make quite noticable noise. Maybe only products like Neumann with less than 20db can solve it within certain budget.

Well, if you have heard them and they make noticeable noise then matter is solved.

 

[superbluecat]

I also do not want any hissing or coil whine when browing web pages. That's the point.
Cheap JBL can make quite noticable noise. Maybe only products like Neumann with less than 20db can solve it within certain budget.

Note that I have very high demand on purifying any harsh noise; picked certain models of GPU and PSU to get coil whine proof earlier.
If using cheaper large speakers hissing is audible among the smooth sound of computer fans even if the SPL is actually lower.

I heard that as people get older they gradually hear poorly and cannot hear the 30db hiss anymore. Every person is different, and I can still hear sharp...

Two corrections:
At 1m I can still hear 10db among the smooth computer fans sound. If 30db@10cm.

The hissing may get even larger than the hissing list measurements depending on home electricity quality.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Actually I have tried some 5 inch speakers earlier. Both me and my roommate cannot take the quaking bass, so I don't think it is good to get big ones, for me.

"Quaking bass"? That screams for some sine sweeps to find out whether you've got some massive resonances as a result of room modes going on. And, perhaps, some measurements. You generally want the bass response to follow what the room does (otherwise it wil soumd thin), but without the big peaks and dips. You generally want decent coverage to 50-60 Hz at the minimum, 40 would be better.

Cheap JBL can make quite noticable noise. Maybe only products like Neumann with less than 20db can solve it within certain budget.

KRK RP5 G4, Mackie MR524 and Kali LP6v2 would be the ones I'd be thinking of.

 

[Ellebob]

I haven't found the Kali to have hiss in their version 2 but they are much larger than the speakers you are considering and the MM-6 version of the LP-6v2 does have an optical input. If you went with the Genelec G1 with their F1 it has a digital input on the sub. A pricey combo though and maybe more bass then you desire but you can always turn the sub down. The Kali IN-UNF can connect via USB or optical. However, while the speakers are small and unobtrusive you have to fit the bass module somewhere on your desk. Edifier probably has more models that will work for your situation. I think the iLoud MTM or Micro are one of the better bets for smaller speakers without a sub, not sure if they are prone to hiss though as they are analog.

 

[holdingpants01]

I haven't found the Kali to have hiss in their version 2 but they are much larger than the speakers you are considering and the MM-6 version of the LP-6v2 does have an optical input. If you went with the Genelec G1 with their F1 it has a digital input on the sub. A pricey combo though and maybe more bass then you desire but you can always turn the sub down. The Kali IN-UNF can connect via USB or optical. However, while the speakers are small and unobtrusive you have to fit the bass module somewhere on your desk. Edifier probably has more models that will work for your situation. I think the iLoud MTM or Micro are one of the better bets for smaller speakers without a sub, not sure if they are prone to hiss though as they are analog.

I had IK Micro and it was very hissy, I don't know how MTM compares, but on the other hand it is not analog, it even has an USB input. It also uses calibration with added microphone so it's a quite nice package, however too close to KH80 price wise

 

[superbluecat]

I think I already got speakers with similar or even smaller noise right now compared to Mackie and Kali (The AudioEngine HD, AB amp).

For most normal cases I do not hear things at 0.9m, except for leaning forward or late midnight. Looks like there will be limited choice for ultimate update.

Note that I have RTX 4090 in my PC. A pair of tier 1 speakers shouldn't be overkill for the system lol

 

[Ellebob]

I had IK Micro and it was very hissy, I don't know how MTM compares, but on the other hand it is not analog, it even has an USB input. It also uses calibration with added microphone so it's a quite nice package, however too close to KH80 price wise

The MTM can't use USB as input, only updates. So analog input only

 

[srrxr71]

Nothing a Topping D10B can’t solve.

 

[superbluecat]

Nothing a Topping D10B can’t solve.

Went with topping e70 + KH80. Happy with below 0db hissing and flat response after calibration.

 

[Miguelón]

I am a PC gamer who sometimes watch video and listen to music. Not being any professional in audio, I only decide to put active 2.0 speakers by the side of my 27-inch monitor. (A triangle of about 1 meter)
The audioengine HD4 I am currently using still has some hissing and port noise within 1 feet (though it is already much better than the previous pairs I returned, and does not cause bad sounds at 1 meter). Also the audio quality is not as good as the ideal monitor-level response according to some measurements I see online.

Therefore, I think I would seek an opportunity for future upgrade if brands like Neumann and Genelec can release 4-inch small speakers with digital input in the future.
I would think speakers like those will be ultimate graduation for Desktop PC system within 1-meter super-near field listening zero noise and vintage sound. (From my point of view, Larger speakers mean bulky, larger self noise, overwhelming bass and more $!)

However, what is a pity is that both KH80 DSP and 8020d/8320 has no digital input like USB and SPDIF.
I think it is awkward that Moutherboard does DAC, then DSP does ADC and DAC again, why not directly add a digital input interface?
Given that Neumann has released KH 120 II with SPDIF input very recently, is it like they will also release a KH 80 II likewise in the near future? Same questions for Genelec.
Even if I asked both customer service, they have got no story to tell me...

Thanks for discussion!

Hope you’re right, I have one Neumann KH 80 for a 14 days trial period, and somehow sounds boring…
Perhaps is the effect of the redundant conversion that mixes two different DACs and one ADC in serial pattern.

Many people complained about lack of SPDIF or AES / EBU connection on both Neumann and Genelec little 4 inch monitors.

I personally have doubts about they will change design, just because that provide both brands a reason to invite you to spend more money on the 5 inch version.

In two days I will receive Wiim Pro Plus, I have also a Neumann KH 120 ii to connect to the streamer by SPDIF and verify the difference between single DAC conversion and the super redundant DAC-ADC-DAC

 

[superbluecat]

Hope you’re right, I have one Neumann KH 80 for a 14 days trial period, and somehow sounds boring…
Perhaps is the effect of the redundant conversion that mixes two different DACs and one ADC in serial pattern.

Many people complained about lack of SPDIF or AES / EBU connection on both Neumann and Genelec little 4 inch monitors.

I personally have doubts about they will change design, just because that provide both brands a reason to invite you to spend more money on the 5 inch version.

In two days I will receive Wiim Pro Plus, I have also a Neumann KH 120 ii to connect to the streamer by SPDIF and verify the difference between single DAC conversion and the super redundant DAC-ADC-DAC

I see. Make sure to use MA1 microphone calibration though. If that sound comes from certain resonance, you need to calibrate the response curve to flat; or the problem may persist for 5-inch model.

A pity that I do not have enough budget or large room for 5-inch desktop settings.

 

[Miguelón]

I see. Make sure to use MA1 microphone calibration though. If that sound comes from certain resonance, you need to calibrate the response curve to flat; or the problem may persist for 5-inch model.

A pity that I do not have enough budget or large room for 5-inch desktop settings.

Not a problem from response curve, those kind of things are a matter of mixing or producing.

Just the music sounds boring, probably because the DSP are extremely programmed to avoid all kinds of perturbations and produce perfect test results.

Professional’s world don’t lack of marketing as audiophile’s one. Brands like Neumann have seen the success of monitors that provide flat response test, that don’t make the speaker better or more balance.

A spinorama is just a calibration tool that tells which pressure sound returns the speaker at given frequency in a given moment. Does not take into account things like ringing (how speakers store and returns potential energy), or transients, or dynamics.

Personally I think that a brand could produce a bad speaker (i.e. musically bad, don’t forget that a monitor purpose is listening to music).

In my second impression, Neumann kh 80 and 120 are quite bad: no emotions nor texture of instruments. I know the sound of a piano better than the voice of my mother, cello quite good also as is the instrument of my girlfriend. Violins sound schematic and lack of beauty, even Hillary Hann or Mischa Maisky (cello).

Just a last try with 120 on SPDIF, and they will go back to Thomann. My first choice was Genelec 8030, not very expensive nowadays.

To the question of room, Genelec 5 inch speaker has less section than Neumann kh 80 for example, did you tried them? Not bulky at all, probably the smallest 5 inch speakers on the market

 

[superbluecat]

Not a problem from response curve, those kind of things are a matter of mixing or producing.

Just the music sounds boring, probably because the DSP are extremely programmed to avoid all kinds of perturbations and produce perfect test results.

Professional’s world don’t lack of marketing as audiophile’s one. Brands like Neumann have seen the success of monitors that provide flat response test, that don’t make the speaker better or more balance.

A spinorama is just a calibration tool that tells which pressure sound returns the speaker at given frequency in a given moment. Does not take into account things like ringing (how speakers store and returns potential energy), or transients, or dynamics.

Personally I think that a brand could produce a bad speaker (i.e. musically bad, don’t forget that a monitor purpose is listening to music).

In my second impression, Neumann kh 80 and 120 are quite bad: no emotions nor texture of instruments. I know the sound of a piano better than the voice of my mother, cello quite good also as is the instrument of my girlfriend. Violins sound schematic and lack of beauty, even Hillary Hann or Mischa Maisky (cello).

Just a last try with 120 on SPDIF, and they will go back to Thomann. My first choice was Genelec 8030, not very expensive nowadays.

To the question of room, Genelec 5 inch speaker has less section than Neumann kh 80 for example, did you tried them? Not bulky at all, probably the smallest 5 inch speakers on the market

My room is kind of small so I need to make a triangle of about 95cm. 5 inch may get too off axis within 1 meter (unless 8331); on the other hand genelec also has larger hiss level so I still do neumann.

I think you are correct that dsp can break the musical property for certain frequency ranges. To get the best effect, it's better to dsp the room rather than the speakers. That's much more cost than devices themselves though. So those dsp speakers make some cheap alternatives.

 

[Miguelón]

My room is kind of small so I need to make a triangle of about 95cm. 5 inch may get too off axis within 1 meter (unless 8331); on the other hand genelec also has larger hiss level so I still do neumann.

I think you are correct that dsp can break the musical property for certain frequency ranges. To get the best effect, it's better to dsp the room rather than the speakers. That's much more cost than devices themselves though. So those dsp speakers make some cheap alternatives.

For instance I don’t know if this musicality impact relays on the multiple conversion or simply on the Neumann’s DSP corrections.

Theoretically digital filters use Fourier transforms (numerical), an advanced mathematical operations to get out frequencies. As they should go to reverse Fourier transforms to reconstruct original time space, they will loose some information on the process.

This is one of the main reasons why is better to filter on higher resolution files to finally have a good quality output: the more resolution the filtering the less audible impact on the original file.

For alternative DSP on, for example, TV sound, streaming music and multimedia content you have external full digital DSP:

Order the miniDSP OpenDRC-DI DSP

Buy the OpenDRC-DI online at SoundImports ✓ Same day shipping ✓ Low shipping rates

www.soundimports.eu

Works with DIRAC, maybe a solution, there’s also the possibility to use them with smartphones and tablets (only as audio output once made the correction on the computer) as is class compliant.

And of course, there are good old fully analogue filters for nostalgics like me!

Elysia xfilter qube

Ecualizador estéreo portátil Topología Class-A 100%, Auténtico Link estéreo, Filtros High y Low Shelf, Filtro pasoalto y pasobajo con resonancia, Dos medios paramétricos con Q conmutable, High-Band pasivo adicional, Potenciómetros secuenciales...

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